The SpeakerThe SpeakerGood morning, Members. The Minutes of November 23rd have been ci rculated. Are there any omissions or amendments to these Minutes? There are none. The Minutes are approved as printed. [Minutes of 23 November 2018 confirmed] MESSAGES FROM THE GOVERNOR
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThere are none. ANNOUNCE MENTS BY THE SPEAKER OR MEMBER PRESIDING APOLOGIES
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThe announcements this morning are that we have been informed that three Members will be absent today. The P remier is overseas on Government business, as well as Minister Caines. And MP Sylvan Richards has also given notice that he will be absent today. MESSAGES FROM THE SENATE
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThere are none. PAPERS AND OTHER COMMUNICATIONS TO THE HOUSE The Spe aker: There are four papers to be communicated to the House today. The first two are in the name of Minister Brown. Minister Brown, would you like to present your papers? Hon. Walton Brown: Yes. Good morning, Mr. …
The SpeakerThe SpeakerGood morning. HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSION ANNUAL REPORTS FOR 2016 AND 2017 Hon. Walton Brown: Mr. Speaker, I have the honour to attach and submit for the information of the Honourable House of Assembly the Human Rights Commission Annual Reports for 2016 and 2017.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThank you. The Clerk: Good morning, Members. Just to let you know that these two reports will be circulated to all Members electronically.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThe next Minister we would like to recognise is the Minister for Finance. Minister, t urn you microphone on. Hon. Curtis L. Dickinson: Good morning, Mr. Speaker.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerGood morning. CONTRIBUTORY PENSIONS (AMENDMENT OF BENEFITS) ORDER 2018 Hon. Curtis L. Dickinson: Mr. Speaker, I have the honour to attach and submit for the consideration of the Honourable House of Assembly the Contributory Pensions (Amendment of Benefits) Order 2018, pr oposed to be made by the Minister of Finance …
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThank you. And, Minister of Tourism, would you like to present yours at this point? Hon. Zane J. S. De Silva: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Yes.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerYes. Go ahead. 212 30 November 2018 Offici al Hansard Report Bermuda House of Assembly TOURISM INVESTMENT (BERMUDIANA BEACH RESORT) ORDER 2018 Hon. Zane J. S. De Silva: Mr. Speaker, I have the honour to attach and submi t for the consideration of the Honourable House of Assembly the Tourism …
Yes. Go ahead.
212 30 November 2018 Offici al Hansard Report
Bermuda House of Assembly TOURISM INVESTMENT (BERMUDIANA BEACH RESORT) ORDER 2018
Hon. Zane J. S. De Silva: Mr. Speaker, I have the honour to attach and submi t for the consideration of the Honourable House of Assembly the Tourism I nvestment (Bermudiana Beach Resort) Order 2018, proposed to be made by the Minister responsible for Tourism, with the written agreement of the Minister of Finance, under section 5 of the Tourism Investment Act 2017.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThere are none. STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS AND JUNIOR MINISTERS
The SpeakerThe SpeakerWe have two Statements on the Order Paper this morning. The first is in the name of Minister Brown. Minister. RE-ORGANI SATION OF THE HUMAN RESOURCE FUNCTION IN THE PUBLIC SERVICE Hon. Walton Brown: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, M embers will already be aware that the government is …
We have two Statements on the Order Paper this morning. The first is in the name of Minister Brown. Minister.
RE-ORGANI SATION OF THE HUMAN RESOURCE FUNCTION IN THE PUBLIC SERVICE Hon. Walton Brown: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, M embers will already be aware that the government is Bermuda’s largest employer. As at November 2018, there were 4,680 employees in the public service. Mr. Speaker, the government’s workforce is represented by six unions and/or associations, and the conditions of employment are set out in [seven] separate collective bargaining agreements and/or conditions of service orders. Mr. Speaker, human resource services are delivered in accordance with statutory provisions, as set out in the Public Service Commission Regulations 2001 and the Public Service (Delegation of Powers) Regulations 2001, as well as statutory provisions co ntained in other legislation such as Contributory Pensions Act 1970, Payroll Tax Act 1995, Payroll Tax Rates Act 1995 and Public Service Superannuation Act 1981, to name a few. Mr. Speaker, currently, the government of Bermuda relies upon a decentrali sed HR [Human R esource] service delivery model, which has grown organically over the years. Services are delivered by way of 68 posts spread across nine different human resources departments and units, in addition to the Department of Human Resources. Notably, the Department of Human Resources
is responsible for the provision of human resource services only to the members of the Bermuda Public Services Union (general membership), those officers , traditionally referred to as civil servants, which is ap-proximately 40 per cent of the workforce. Mr. Speaker, some of the primary HR functions, including employee compensation and benefits , and job evaluations, are executed outside of the human resource service centres by the Accountant General’s Department and the Management Consul ting Section, Cabinet Office, respectively. Mr. Speaker, this decentralised delivery model, coupled with the layers of collective agreements and regulatory requirements, has long been regarded as an impediment to the public service. As a result, there are duplication of effort, inconsistent service delivery, a weighty compliance regime and an inordinate amount of time to execute basic functions. Further, there is limited talent management across every level of the service, as well as a lack of consistent performance structure, including recognition and aligning performance commitments with career development. Mr. Speaker, this Government aims to establish the following: conditions within the public service that attract, develop, motivate and retain a quality talent pool; an environment where a strong performance culture is present and public officers are rewarded for effectiveness and achi evement of clearly stated outcomes; and a workplace where public officers feel empowered and accountable for achieving performance metrics. To this end, the Government has taken the decision to reform its human resource function to en-sure increased effici ency, effectivenes s and equity. Mr. Speaker, the Government will take steps to centralis e its human resource and organi sational development functions. Mr. Speaker, t he Cabinet Office, working through a project team and using a consultative and collaborati ve approach, has designed a new structure which aligns all HR services under one department. The new structure will facilitate the strategic repos itioning of the role of HR with respect to organi sational capital development and improvement. Mr. Speaker, the new structure, to be entitled the Department of Employee and Organis ational Development, establishes a strategic leadership and change management position. The proposed Chief Employee and Organisational Development Officer will lead the transform ational change, and develop high impact strategies and programmes in consultation with stakeholders. Mr. Speaker, the new department is expected to result in improved service delivery and understanding of the business needs through the creation of HR Business Par tners. It will have the responsibility for managing all seven union agreements and union partners ; this is expected to enhance labour relations and employment practices within the service. The i ntroduction of an Employee Relations Adviser will also enable a proactive approach to industrial and employee relations.
Bermuda House of Assembly Mr. Speaker, the Talent A cquisition Manager will modernis e recruitment and position Government as an employer of choice. The creation of a dedicated Recruitment Unit will reduce time to recruit. T he renewed focus on talent management will improve the Government’s capability to deliver value to the public , by developing a talent pool and thus filling a critical skills gap. Mr. Speaker, further, an HR Systems Specialist is fundamental for the digital transformation of HR, a critical enabler for success of the proposed structure. Moreover, the s ervice will benefit from integrated employee management services. Mr. Speaker, given the complexity and magnitude of the change, the structure will be implemented in three phases. In phase 1, the new department will be established administratively, the Chief Employee and Organi sational Development Officer will be r ecruited, and the transfer of the Management Consul ting Section and the Compensation and Benefits Se ction to the new department will be completed. It is e xpected that p hase 1 will occur over the next six months. Mr. Speaker, phases 2 and 3, which will see the transition of all of the other HR resources from across g overnment into the new department, wi ll be executed over the course of 12 to 24 months. As a part of the latter phases , the existing Department of Human Resources will be abolished. As a note, Mr. Speaker, it is anticipated that all of the existing resources will be incorporated into new rol es within the new department. Mr. Speaker, the new Department of Em ployee and Organi sational Development will be built on a shared services philosophy , which will reduce the duplication of services, as well as ultimately reduce the cost of service delivery . Mr. Speaker, this Government will continue to take bold steps to transform the public service as we work towards establishing a future- forward Gover nment for the people of Bermuda. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThank you, Minister. The second S tatement this morning is in the name of Minister Foggo. Minister, would you like to present your Statement? COMMUNITY OUTREACH: CAREER DEVELOPMENT, REGISTRATION AND TRAINING DRIVE Hon. Lovitta F. Foggo: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Good morning to Bermuda, and good morning to Members of …
Thank you, Minister. The second S tatement this morning is in the name of Minister Foggo. Minister, would you like to present your Statement? COMMUNITY OUTREACH: CAREER DEVELOPMENT, REGISTRATION AND TRAINING DRIVE
Hon. Lovitta F. Foggo: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Good morning to Bermuda, and good morning to Members of the House. Mr. Speaker, I rise today to provide this Honourable House with an update on the progress made following my S tatement to the House on the 16th of November about Workforce Development initiatives. The House is aware that the department provides two primary services, namely , career development and training. The Career Development Section provides employment readiness services and training, while the Training Section funds educational program mes, oversees apprenticeshi p and trainee program mes, and regulates certification standards in four designated trades. The Department of Workforce Development is keen to increase awareness of their services through a widespread community outreach campaign. For this purpose, the department will host a Career Development, Training and Registration Drive on the 6th of December , from 10:30 am to 2:30 pm, at the Devonshire Recreation Club. Several similar events are planned for the new year , which will take the department’s services to the eastern and western parishes. The intent is to take the department’s services “ to the streets .” By hosting these community initiatives and collaborating with community clubs , the department hopes to achieve the following: • establish a presence in the community, becoming more visible and providing coordinated services by partnering with comm unity organi sations; • educate the public about available services and how best to utilise the services to re- enter the workforce; • provide career development and employment readiness services in the community; • empower Bermudians and equip them with proven strategies to reach their career and employment goals; • capture detail s on skills and qualifications for unemployed persons who would not ordinarily come to the d epartment for services; and • rebrand the department as a viable resource for career development services, workforce programmes, scholarships, funding, apprenticeships and training opportunities. Mr. Speaker, t he event at the Devonshire Recreation Club will include general workshops covering Interview Skills : Winning Over the Recruiter; Understanding What Employers Want: Employability Skills; and Your Digital Footprint (Online Image) and Employment. Additionally, professionals will be onsite to assist individuals with résumé devel opment and critique; assist with registering on the Ber muda Job Board; provide job leads ; discuss national certification; discuss apprentices hips; and provide information on upcoming training initiatives. Attendees will have the opportunity to speak with professionals about their job search efforts —what has been working, what has not been working, and what the individual might do differently t o become more marketable to employers. Attendees will work together with the department to increase their pr ospects of success. 214 30 November 2018 Offici al Hansard Report
Bermuda House of Assembly Bermuda College recruiters will also be pr esent at the event to share information on their degree, certificate and diploma programmes. They will also share details on the many pathways by which persons can earn a bachelor ’s degree, or beyond, through the Bermuda College. Mr. Speaker, while the department is not an employment agency, employers do contact the Career Development Sec tion regularly for suitable candidates to fill their vacancies. Employers must make contact with the section for the restricted job categories, as outlined in the work permit policy . In response to the employers’ request, the s ection looks to identify suit able referrals in their internal database to submit for consideration. For this reason, it is important for anyone seeking employment or a career change to regi ster with the department so that they can be consi dered for these opportunities, Mr. Speaker. We are very encouraged by the reduction in unemployment , published earlier this week in the 2018 Labour Force Survey. However, there is much more work to do. Bermuda’s job market has become increasingly competitive. In order to compete, persons must engage in continuous improv ement, professional development and life- long learning. The department is in talks with Take Five and the Bermuda Hospitality Institute to design a wai ter/server training programme to meet workforce demands. Further, the department has engaged several cleaning companies to design a training initiative for certified commercial cleaners. Both training pr ogrammes will launch in January 2019. Persons completing the programme will obtain internationally recognis ed credentials as a Certified Custodial Technician or Certified Food and Beverage Server , respectively. Training in court transcription is being explored to provide the necessary manpower locally. These are just a few of the training initiatives to be launched in the New Year, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, a town hall meeting is also planned for January 2019 to engage the public in frank dialogue. The department wants to understand how they can better serve the unemployed and un-deremployed. This will be an opportunity for real talk and sol ution- driven conversation about how to i mprove the department’s services, how the department can hel p, and how job seekers and the department can forge a shared partnership to work together. The department has had the opportunity to revamp their services and wants to take these serv ices to the streets. Professionals , as stated, will be on hand on December the 6 th to help the unemployed and underemployed to present themselves more confidently to employers, enhance their r ésumés and i ncrease their chances of success. Staff will follow up with attendees to ensure that they receive the full range of services necessary to become employment ready and marketable. I encourage the public to t ake advantage of these services, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, t he Department of Workforce Development will continue to assist and prepare persons for employment and a career. Once again, Mr. Speaker, it gives me a great deal of pleasure at this time to have had this opportunity to update this Honourable House and the good people of Bermuda about the progress of the programmes within the department. Thank you, Mr. Speaker .
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThank you, Minister. That brings us to a close of Ministerial Stat ements. REPORTS OF COMMITTEES
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThere are none. QUESTION PERIOD
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThis morning we have three sets of questions that have been put in written form for the Ministers. All three are for written reply; none for oral response. Members, have you received your responses from the respective Ministers? Yes? Okay. QUESTION: MOTT MACDONALD REPORT ON KING’S WHARF, DOCKYARD Hon. L. …
This morning we have three sets of questions that have been put in written form for the Ministers. All three are for written reply; none for oral response. Members, have you received your responses from the respective Ministers? Yes? Okay.
QUESTION: MOTT MACDONALD REPORT ON KING’S WHARF, DOCKYARD
Hon. L. Craig Cannonier: Will the Honour able Minister please pr ovide to this Honourable House the seventy -seven (77) page report and recommendations produced by UK firm, Mott Macdonald regar ding the state of King’s Wharf, Dockyard, Ber muda?
QUESTION: PUBLIC SERVICE EMPLOYE ES, STATS
Ms. Susan E. Jackson1. Will the Honour able Minister please provide to this Honourable House the number of paid civil servants by Ministry? 2. Will the Honourable Minister please provide to this Honourable House a list of the one-hundred forty -eight (148) “hard to fill” positions identified for succession planning and w hich …
1. Will the Honour able Minister please provide to this Honourable House the number of paid civil servants by Ministry?
2. Will the Honourable Minister please provide to this Honourable House a list of the one-hundred forty -eight (148) “hard to fill” positions identified for succession planning and w hich positions are occupied by work permit hol ders?
3. Will the Honourable Minister please provide to this Honourable House a list of all Public Service Bursary Award recipients and list all recipients presently working in the civil service by job function and please identify which of these job functions are identified as “hard to fill”?
Bermuda House of Assembly QUESTION: BERMUDA SPORT ANTI -DOPING AUTHORITY, TEST FEE STATS
Mr. Ben Smith1. Will the Honourable Mini ster please provide to this Honourable House the breakdown of the fifty -seven (57) antidoping tests which cost The Bermuda Sport Anti-Doping Authority the total of $102,996, delineating how many Performance Enhancing tests and how many Illicit Drug Screening tests were conducted, by sport? 2. …
1. Will the Honourable Mini ster please provide to this Honourable House the breakdown of the fifty -seven (57) antidoping tests which cost The Bermuda Sport Anti-Doping Authority the total of $102,996, delineating how many Performance Enhancing tests and how many Illicit Drug Screening tests were conducted, by sport? 2. Will the Honourable Minister please provide to this Honourable House the breakdown, by number of full -time and part -time employees, by category of Performance Enhancement Testing/Illicit Drug Screening/General Admi nistration, salary and employee benefits that comprise the $419,257 as articulated in Note 7 to The Bermuda Sport Anti -Doping Authority Financial Statements? 3. Will the Honourable Minister please provide to this Honourable House what changes were made to the Board to account for an increase in members fees?
The SpeakerThe SpeakerWe will then move on to the questions for the Statements this morning. And again, I remind Members that this is a 60minute period of questions and answers, so we will start that clock now. The firs t question that arises this morning out of Statements is for Minister Brown. …
We will then move on to the questions for the Statements this morning. And again, I remind Members that this is a 60minute period of questions and answers, so we will start that clock now. The firs t question that arises this morning out of Statements is for Minister Brown. In reference to your Statement this morning, we have two Members who wish to ask questions. The first Member is the Member from consti tuency 10. You can put your question now.
QUESTION 1: THE RE -ORGANI SATION OF THE HUMAN RESOURCE FUNCTION IN THE PUBLIC SERVICE Hon. Michael H. Dunkley: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, and good morning to you and colleagues and people listening. In regard to the Statement by Minister Brown, on page 3, the Honourable Minister lists, in the sec-ond paragraph, that “As a result, there are duplication of effort, inconsistent service delivery, a weighty compliance regime and an inordinate amount of time r equired to execute basic functions.” Mr. Speaker, I can see that there is a duplic ation of effort. But the question to the Honourable Mi nister is, How can we be assured that this amalgam ation of the services will be able to do away with (1) the inconsistent service delivery; and (2) the inordinate amount of tim e it takes to execute basic functions?
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThank you, Member. Minister. Hon. Walton Brown: Thank you. The duplication will be avoided because the streamlining process has been specifically designed to cut down on duplication. There has been a very thorough examination of the processes that are i nvolved in coming to this decision. And we have determined …
Thank you, Member. Minister.
Hon. Walton Brown: Thank you. The duplication will be avoided because the streamlining process has been specifically designed to cut down on duplication. There has been a very thorough examination of the processes that are i nvolved in coming to this decision. And we have determined that the decision- making process will be a lot simpler, therefore streamlined and more effective. And we will also eliminate the duplicated effort by, as I said, having a streamlined approach.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThank you, Minister. A new question or supplementary? Hon. Michael H. Dunkley: This is a supplementary.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerSupplementary. SUPPLEMENTARY Hon. Michael H. Dunkley: Related to the fi rst question, Mr. Speaker. I accept the duplication effort across the civil service. Obviously, I had some r esponsibility in that area, so I am well aware of that. My specific question is in regard to inconsistent service delivery and …
Supplementary.
SUPPLEMENTARY
Hon. Michael H. Dunkley: Related to the fi rst question, Mr. Speaker. I accept the duplication effort across the civil service. Obviously, I had some r esponsibility in that area, so I am well aware of that. My specific question is in regard to inconsistent service delivery and the inordinate amount of time it takes to execute basic functions. So, how will this amalgamation deal with those two challenges? Because, unless we get to the root of inconsistent service delivery and the amount of time it takes to exercise basic functions, we will not make the improv ement we expect.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThank you. Minister. Hon. Walton Brown: We will make the improvement in time precisely because we have thoroughly examined the steps that are involved. And we are looking at cutting unnecessary steps and procedures to get to enhanced service delivery.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThank you. Supplementary? Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Yes. I have a supplementary.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerWe have a supplementary from the Honourable Member from constituency 23. Honourable Member. SUPPL EMENTARIES Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. 216 30 November 2018 Offici al Hansard Report Bermuda House of Assembly Mr. Speaker, the Minister spoke to duplic ations. But on page 6, he is …
We have a supplementary from the Honourable Member from constituency 23. Honourable Member.
SUPPL EMENTARIES Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. 216 30 November 2018 Offici al Hansard Report
Bermuda House of Assembly Mr. Speaker, the Minister spoke to duplic ations. But on page 6, he is indicating that all of the existing resources will be incorporated into new roles within the new department. So the question is, If we are literally just shifting the chairs on the deck, if we are not creating efficiencies, how is the new depar tment likely to be better?
The SpeakerThe SpeakerMinister. Hon. Walton Brown: The new department will be better because we will have a clearly defined approach to dealing with the situation, dealing with the challenges. We are taking the people who are in existing positions and we are putting them in new positions. That is still part of …
Minister.
Hon. Walton Brown: The new department will be better because we will have a clearly defined approach to dealing with the situation, dealing with the challenges. We are taking the people who are in existing positions and we are putting them in new positions. That is still part of a streamlined approach, because we are going to ensure that there is a much greater focus on achieving the outcome and a focus on service deli very.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThank you. Second supplementary? Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Yes. I have a second supplementary. And that is, “ streamlining” means making slimmer. If we are not making it slimmer, we are act ually just doing a lateral integration. And the question is, How is that lateral integration going to …
Thank you. Second supplementary? Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Yes. I have a second supplementary. And that is, “ streamlining” means making slimmer. If we are not making it slimmer, we are act ually just doing a lateral integration. And the question is, How is that lateral integration going to improve what it is that is being offered by this new, burgeoning, combined resources within the new department? Hon. Walton Brown: Well, it is not going to be a burgeoning entity. It is going to be a streamlined ap-proach. We are going to look more carefully at all of the resources that are being applied and streamlining the application of staff to the wor k that is going to be undertaken.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThank you. Supplementary? Second supplementary? SUPPLEMENTARY Hon. Michael H. Dunkley: Yes, supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Thank you. Mr. Speaker, we all, I guess, appreciate that human resource time is important , because if people apply and they wait an inordinate amount of time, they could move on to another position. So, …
Thank you. Supplementary? Second supplementary?
SUPPLEMENTARY
Hon. Michael H. Dunkley: Yes, supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Thank you. Mr. Speaker, we all, I guess, appreciate that human resource time is important , because if people apply and they wait an inordinate amount of time, they could move on to another position. So, the Honour able Minister said, in response to my first supplementary, that they intend to . . . his exact words were, “ cutting unnecessary steps and procedures .” Can the Honourable Minister elucidate which steps and procedures that are unnecessary will be cut out?
The SpeakerThe SpeakerMinister. Hon. Walton Brown: Well, by having everything under one [roof] , you have the benefit of shared expertise. And, therefore, you will not need to have unnecessary steps involved. I cannot speak specifically to the steps in each and every case. But there will be an elimination of unnecessary …
Minister. Hon. Walton Brown: Well, by having everything under one [roof] , you have the benefit of shared expertise. And, therefore, you will not need to have unnecessary steps involved. I cannot speak specifically to the steps in each and every case. But there will be an elimination of unnecessary steps which the whole process will fine- tune in the service delivery.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThank you, Minister. Supplementary? Hon. Jeanne J. Atherden: I have a supplementary.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerSupplementary. SUPPLEMENTARY Hon. Jeanne J. Atherden: My supplementary is this. I can understand why everybody might come across initially. But I do not understand why one would not expect that there could be opportunities, if you will, for duplication of individual responsibilities, and therefore the possibilities of moving some of …
Supplementary.
SUPPLEMENTARY
Hon. Jeanne J. Atherden: My supplementary is this. I can understand why everybody might come across initially. But I do not understand why one would not expect that there could be opportunities, if you will, for duplication of individual responsibilities, and therefore the possibilities of moving some of those staff to other jobs. Because it is unfathomable that w ith all of these human resources doing the same thing you are not going to find that some people are overlapping and, therefore, become . . . not redundant, but they become—
The SpeakerThe SpeakerSo, put it in a direct question for him. Hon. Jeanne J. Atherden: So, I wonder if there had been any examination of the various departments that you are amalgamating to see whether there is duplic ation that could result in redundancies. Because it just does not seem like it …
So, put it in a direct question for him.
Hon. Jeanne J. Atherden: So, I wonder if there had been any examination of the various departments that you are amalgamating to see whether there is duplic ation that could result in redundancies. Because it just does not seem like it is possible that this could happen without some degree of redundancy. Has there been any examination of that? Hon. Walton Brown: Well, we had a very thorough examination of this whole process by KPMG. They developed a plan for us that we are acting on. And it does contain within it a programme for dealing with all incumbent positions.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThank you. Supplementaries? No supplementary. Would you like to put your second question, or your new question, second question? Hon. Michael H. Dunkley: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker — The Clerk: A new question?
The SpeakerThe SpeakerYes, a new question. Bermuda House of Assembly Hon. Michael H. Dunkley: New question. Yes, I do not have any more supplementaries. I would try to take one, but I do not have any more left.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerNo, no. No, no. New question. QUESTION 2: THE RE -ORGANISATION OF THE HUMAN RESOURCE FUNCTION IN THE PUBLIC SERVICE Hon. Michael H. Dunkley: The Speaker has got it covered today. In regard to the amalgamation, is it fair to say that all . . . every single government department …
No, no. No, no. New question.
QUESTION 2: THE RE -ORGANISATION OF THE HUMAN RESOURCE FUNCTION IN THE PUBLIC SERVICE Hon. Michael H. Dunkley: The Speaker has got it covered today. In regard to the amalgamation, is it fair to say that all . . . every single government department will come under this new unit? And that includes certain departments within the National Security, such as the Bermuda Police Service and Corrections .
The SpeakerThe SpeakerMinister. Hon. Walton Brown: Yes, that is correct.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerSupplementary? SUPPLEMENTARY Hon. Michael H. D unkley: Supplementary in that r egard, Mr. Speaker. And I asked that specifically because, in those areas, I was always of the belief that, certainly with the police, it might be better for their human resources to be handled within, and the same with …
Supplementary?
SUPPLEMENTARY Hon. Michael H. D unkley: Supplementary in that r egard, Mr. Speaker. And I asked that specifically because, in those areas, I was always of the belief that, certainly with the police, it might be better for their human resources to be handled within, and the same with Corr ections, because they have some specialised services that are important for them to get to grips with. So, has the Minister considered that, in regard to certain departments, the amalgamation might not be the most effective way?
The SpeakerThe SpeakerMinister. Hon. Walton Brown: Well, we have determined that amalgamation is the most effective way. For those areas that are specialised, we will have specialised people within the Department of Human Resources to deal with those specialised matters. But we do believe that it is the best way to go …
Minister.
Hon. Walton Brown: Well, we have determined that amalgamation is the most effective way. For those areas that are specialised, we will have specialised people within the Department of Human Resources to deal with those specialised matters. But we do believe that it is the best way to go forward, to have all of the HR functions under one roof.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThank you. Do you have a supplementary? SUPPLEMENTARIES Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Yes. I have a supplementary in respect of the Minister’s answ er. How will the disparity of union agreements be able to be effectively coordinated under this new structure?
The SpeakerThe SpeakerMinister. Hon. Walton Brown: Well, that is precisely the point. There are disparate agreements. We will have one entity that will deal with all of the agreements. And we believe that there is great synergy in achieving this here, because then you will be able to look at the totality …
Minister.
Hon. Walton Brown: Well, that is precisely the point. There are disparate agreements. We will have one entity that will deal with all of the agreements. And we believe that there is great synergy in achieving this here, because then you will be able to look at the totality of the agreements and see what can be brought under one regime, to the extent to which they can be brought under one regime.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThank you. Second supplementary? Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Yes, second supplementary. So, the Honourable Member said that there would be one party looking out for all of the union agreements and that, where possible, they will all be able to be brought under the same regime. But, does this …
Thank you. Second supplementary? Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Yes, second supplementary. So, the Honourable Member said that there would be one party looking out for all of the union agreements and that, where possible, they will all be able to be brought under the same regime. But, does this mean that the terms and conditions that are the subject of such union agreements are going to be renegotiated under this new, combined, consolidated body? Or will they st ill continue to have things that are disparate within the public service, such as pay-ment for insurance or the like?
The SpeakerThe SpeakerMinister. Hon. Walton Brown: Well, let me first of all say that this decision to amalgamate the HR functions has been done w ith the full agreement of the unions. So, they fully recognise that there is a transition process that is involved. And we will work to address all …
Minister. Hon. Walton Brown: Well, let me first of all say that this decision to amalgamate the HR functions has been done w ith the full agreement of the unions. So, they fully recognise that there is a transition process that is involved. And we will work to address all of those issues, including the disparate nature of the trade union agreements.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThank you. Supplementary, from . . . yes? Hon. Jeanne J. Atherden: I have a supplementary.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerYes. SUPPLEMENTARIES Hon. Jeanne J. Atherden: The Minister has indicated that KPMG has provided the consultancy, et cetera, for this exercise. And I know that . . . My question is, were KPMG given the directive to look to see whether there was any duplic ation that could result in …
Yes.
SUPPLEMENTARIES
Hon. Jeanne J. Atherden: The Minister has indicated that KPMG has provided the consultancy, et cetera, for this exercise. And I know that . . . My question is, were KPMG given the directive to look to see whether there was any duplic ation that could result in a reduction in the resources that are in this new amalgamated department?
218 30 November 2018 Offici al Hansard Report
Bermuda House of Assembly The Speaker: Minister.
Hon. Walton Brown: They undertook a holistic a pproach. I cannot speak specifically to whether they were given a directive to find efficiencies. But I do know that they were given a mandate to do a holistic approach and analysis of the HR functions.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThank you. Second supplementary? Hon. Jeanne J. Atherden: Second supplementary. I guess my question is, bearing in mind that there was a SAGE report which talked about trying to right-size government and to try and look at opportunities for reducing, did they look at the SAGE repor t to see …
Thank you. Second supplementary? Hon. Jeanne J. Atherden: Second supplementary. I guess my question is, bearing in mind that there was a SAGE report which talked about trying to right-size government and to try and look at opportunities for reducing, did they look at the SAGE repor t to see whether there was anything there that could be considered?
Hon. Walton Brown: I have no doubt that KPMG did, in fact, look at the SAGE report in their analysis.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerSupplementary or your third ques tion? Hon. Michael H. Dunkley: Third question.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThird question. QUESTION 3: THE RE -ORGANISATION OF THE HUMAN RESOURCE FUNCTION IN THE PUBLIC SERVICE Hon. Michael H. Dunkley: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the Honourable Minister says, on the last page, “it is anticipated that all of the exis ting resources will be incorporated into new roles …
Third question.
QUESTION 3: THE RE -ORGANISATION OF THE HUMAN RESOURCE FUNCTION IN THE PUBLIC SERVICE
Hon. Michael H. Dunkley: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, the Honourable Minister says, on the last page, “it is anticipated that all of the exis ting resources will be incorporated into new roles wit hin the new department,” and some of my colleagues have touched on that. Can the Minister inform this Honourable House that there will be no extra budget considerations, that there will be no extra new pos itions, and there will be no non- Bermudians hired in this process?
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThank you. Minister. Hon. Walton Brown: While I cannot guarantee—
The SpeakerThe SpeakerWait, wait, wait! Sergeant! Go ahead. Go ahead, go ahead, go ahead. Go ahead, go ahead. [Laughter]
The SpeakerThe SpeakerGo ahead. Minister. Hon. Walton Brown: I can say that there were three fewer positions overall. But I cannot guarantee that there will be no new hires whatsoever.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThank you. Supplementary? Hon. Michael H. Dunkley: No, just for clarification. That was one part of the question answered. And I appreciate that from the Honourable Minister. But, will there be any extra budget consi derations? And is there any consideration for hiring a non-Bermudian?
The SpeakerThe SpeakerMinister. Hon. Walton Brown: Well, first of all, there is no extra budget currently under consideration. Secondly, when it comes to the hiring of Bermudians, we always look to hire Bermudians. And if there is no Bermudian identified, t hen we will go overseas. But the intent is al ways …
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThank you, Minister. Supplementary? SUPPLEMENTARY Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Yes, I have a supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Could the Minister advise on how many people there are in total among all of the Human R esources departments? I did not see that [mentioned],
Mr. Speaker.
The SpeakerI believe that was contained in the Statement. Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: I have looked. I am sorry, I may have missed it.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThere are 68 posts, I believe that he indicated, if I am correct. [Crosstalk] Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Okay. Okay. That is fine. That is fine. Thank you.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThank you. Supplementary? Hon. Michael H. Dunkley: Yes, my final supplementary, I believe, Mr. Speaker.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerYes. Bermuda House of Assembly SUPPLEMENTARY Hon. Michael H. Dunkley: Mr. Speaker, to the Honourable Minister, because there are a number of peo-ple who will have to be amalgamated into the new department, how is it going to be decided on seniority as we go forward? Is it going to …
Yes.
Bermuda House of Assembly SUPPLEMENTARY
Hon. Michael H. Dunkley: Mr. Speaker, to the Honourable Minister, because there are a number of peo-ple who will have to be amalgamated into the new department, how is it going to be decided on seniority as we go forward? Is it going to be done by PSC [Public Service Commission] codes? Or is it going to be done by the head of the civil service and unions negotiating who leads this department?
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThank you. Minist er. Hon. Walton Brown: That will be done by the head of the civil service, leading that dialogue and working through the processes, involving the unions, as well.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThank you. Supplementary? I recognise the Honourable Member from constituency 19. Go ahead. SUPPLEMENTARIES Hon. Jeanne J. Atherden: Mr. Speaker, to the Mini ster: Recognising that there will be the recruitment of a Chief Employee and Organisation Development O fficer, I wondered if the Minister could indicate, what will be …
Thank you. Supplementary? I recognise the Honourable Member from constituency 19. Go ahead.
SUPPLEMENTARIES
Hon. Jeanne J. Atherden: Mr. Speaker, to the Mini ster: Recognising that there will be the recruitment of a Chief Employee and Organisation Development O fficer, I wondered if the Minister could indicate, what will be what I call the most important criteria that this person will have to have in terms of experience. Recognising that it is not just recruitment, there are going to be pensions, there are going to be union agreements, what is going to be identified as the most [i mportant] experience or skill that the individual has to have?
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThank you. Minister. Hon. Walton Brown: I cannot speak to the single most important skill that they will require. We have a multitude of considerations involving their experience, the breadth of their experience. I cannot speak to any particular skill set that is going to be an absolute r equirement.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThank you, Minister. Second supplementary? Hon. Jeanne J. Atherden: Second supplementary. Is one of the requirements having the exper ience in terms of working within a government organisation, as opposed to business? Hon. Walton Brown: Well, it certainly helps if they have had experience within government. But it would not …
Thank you, Minister. Second supplementary? Hon. Jeanne J. Atherden: Second supplementary. Is one of the requirements having the exper ience in terms of working within a government organisation, as opposed to business?
Hon. Walton Brown: Well, it certainly helps if they have had experience within government. But it would not necessarily be an impediment if they also had just had outside experience. The Speaker: Thank you, Minister. Supplementary?
SUPPLEMENTARIES
Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Yes, I have a supplementary, because the Statement is not very clear. Could the Minister tell us how many . . . what the total s are in respect of each of the various service departments? Not the nine different human resources departments —how many people are employed in each of those nine areas? Because it says, “in addition to the Department of Human Resource.” Is that something extra, or is the Department of Human R esources included in the 68 within that? Could the Mi nister let us know who is employed within the nine di fferent —
The SpeakerThe SpeakerSo, your question is, Can he provide a breakdown of the 68 persons via departments, current departments? Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Yes, that is correct. But, is that 68 . . . where it says, “in addition to the Department of Human Resources,” I am just not sure if …
So, your question is, Can he provide a breakdown of the 68 persons via departments, current departments?
Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Yes, that is correct. But, is that 68 . . . where it says, “in addition to the Department of Human Resources,” I am just not sure if that is something extra, or if the Human R esources is included in the 68. It needs to be clear.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerOkay. Minister. Hon. Walton Brown: Right. The 68 is in addition to the Department of Human Resources. I cannot speak to the breakdowns by different departments. I will have to get back to you on that. I do not have that at my fingertips.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThank you. Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Supplementary,
Mr. Speaker.
The SpeakerOkay. Your last supplementary. Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Yes. Based on that response, Mr. Speaker, he says this is in additi on to the Department of Human Resources. So the Minister has not asked how many posts there are in respect of human resources. If there are 68 spread …
Okay. Your last supplementary.
Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Yes. Based on that response, Mr. Speaker, he says this is in additi on to the Department of Human Resources. So the Minister has not asked how many posts there are in respect of human resources. If there are 68 spread over nine different human resource departments, in addition to the Department of Human Resources, how many people are in the Department of Human Resources? [So], combined with the 68, what is that total number?
The SpeakerThe SpeakerMinister. 220 30 November 2018 Offici al Hansard Report Bermuda House of Assembly Hon. Walton Brown: Actually, I misspoke. The 68 is combined with HR. That is the total number. It is i nclusive of HR. The Sp eaker: It is inclusive of HR. Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Okay.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerOkay. That brings us to a close of the questions that were raised by the first Member. Minister, you also have a second Member who would like to put a question. The Member from constituency 20, would you still like to put your question?
Ms. Susan E. JacksonGood morning, Mr. Speaker. Most of my questions were answered already. But I do have one.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerOkay. QUESTION 1: THE RE -ORGANISATION OF THE HUMAN RESOURCE FUNCTION IN THE PUBLIC SERVICE
Ms. Susan E. JacksonYou have mentioned a couple of times KPMG. I am just wondering, are they a paid consultant in this project, being paid for their analysis? Hon. Walton Brown: Yes. They were paid to undertake the assi gnment.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThank you, Minister. No further . . . Supplementary, yes.
Ms. Susan E. JacksonYes. I have one other question. So, on your third page, you were just . . . no, it is not the third. I think it is the first page.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerSo, th is is actually your second question, not a supplementary.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerYes. QUESTION 2: THE RE -ORGANISATION OF THE HUMAN RESOURCE FUNCTION IN THE PUBLIC SERVICE
Ms. Susan E. JacksonPage 3, you m ake mention of a “culture . . . public officers are rewarded for effectiveness and achievement of clearly stated outcomes . . . .” It is the “rewarded” that I am asking about. So, are there going to be separate awards, whether it is payment or …
Page 3, you m ake mention of a “culture . . . public officers are rewarded for effectiveness and achievement of clearly stated outcomes . . . .” It is the “rewarded” that I am asking about. So, are there going to be separate awards, whether it is payment or such, above and beyond what sounds like is already what they are supposed to be doing in their daily functions?
The SpeakerThe SpeakerMinister. Hon. Walton Brown: There will be no such bonuses given out. These are just recognition awards for ster-ling performance. The Speake r: Supplementary? Yes. SUPPLEMENTARY Hon. Jeanne J. Atherden: Supplementary. Could the Minister indicate, in the current structure, are performance appraisals done for ever yone right now that might …
The SpeakerThe SpeakerMinister. Hon. Walton Brown: Yes, that is correct. Performance appraisals are done for everyone.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThank you. Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Supplementary.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerSupplementary? SUPPLEMENTARY Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Yes. Mr. Speaker , I wonder if the Honourable Mi nister could respond to “the effectiveness and achievement of clearly stated outcomes . . . .” Pr esumably, that would be a part of their job description. They are required. So, is the …
Supplementary?
SUPPLEMENTARY
Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Yes. Mr. Speaker , I wonder if the Honourable Mi nister could respond to “the effectiveness and achievement of clearly stated outcomes . . . .” Pr esumably, that would be a part of their job description. They are required. So, is the Minister saying that there will be delineated roles outside of their job descri ption—
The SpeakerThe SpeakerNow, I think you may be straying from the original question. Because your supplementary — Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: No. That was his response, the Minister’s response.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerOkay. Al l right. I will let you proceed off of his response. Go ahead. Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Okay. Yes. It says, “an environment where a strong performance culture is present and public officers are rewarded for effectiveness and achievement of clearly stated outcomes . . . .” …
Okay. Al l right. I will let you proceed off of his response. Go ahead. Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Okay. Yes. It says, “an environment where a strong performance culture is present and public officers are rewarded for effectiveness and achievement of clearly stated outcomes . . . .” Their job, presumably, would be being effective and achieving clearly stated outcomes. Is the Minister saying that the rewards will be for outcomes that are above and beyond what their normal occupational requirements will be?
Bermuda House of Assembly The Speaker: Minister.
Hon. Walton Brown: No. The rewards are simply recognition awards for achieving the stated objectives.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerSecond supplementary. SUPPLEMENTARY Hon. Jeanne J. Atherden: Yes, Mr. Speaker. On page 3, the Minister indicated that “there is limited talent management across every level of ser-vice, as well as a lack of consistent performance structure . . . .” And I just wondered whether . . . and then …
Second supplementary.
SUPPLEMENTARY
Hon. Jeanne J. Atherden: Yes, Mr. Speaker. On page 3, the Minister indicated that “there is limited talent management across every level of ser-vice, as well as a lack of consistent performance structure . . . .” And I just wondered whether . . . and then he talks about recognition, et cetera. But, on the other side of recognition is also persons who are not performing. And I just wondered whether there is going to be emphasis on that, as well, because if you want to develop the talent, the talent has to be developed in all aspects of it, not just at the higher levels.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerMinister. Hon. Walton Brown: Right. Well, where there is a lack of performance, there is a plan developed by each manager to enhance the performance delivery of the relevant staff. So, that is something that is ongoing.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThank you. No further s upplementaries or questions? That actually brings us to a close of the Question Period, because there are no questions that have been indicated for the second Statement this morning. Thank you, Members. We will move on. CONGRATULATORY AND/OR OBITUARY SPEECHES
The SpeakerThe SpeakerWould any Member wish to speak to this? We recognise the Honourable Member from constituency 36. Honourable Member Scott, you have the floor. Hon. Michael J. Scott: Good morning, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I rise to ask that this House offer a letter of condolences to the family of Mr. …
Would any Member wish to speak to this? We recognise the Honourable Member from constituency 36. Honourable Member Scott, you have the floor. Hon. Michael J. Scott: Good morning, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I rise to ask that this House offer a letter of condolences to the family of Mr. Alan Pigott, of Sandys Parish, Watford Bridge. Alan was the husband of an attorney and colleague of mine, Mrs. Chri stine Hoskins Pigott. He leaves to mourn his three chi ldren, Amie, Alexander (A. J.), and Nick. Mr. Pigott was an effective and well -known electrical engineer, who worked for many years at the Cambridge Beaches R esort & Spa. He will be missed. He was a good, good resident of our community and contributed to it. I appreciate the opportunity t o offer condolences to Chri stine. Thanks.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThank you, Honourable Member. Does any other Honourable Member [wish to speak]? We recognise the Honourable Member from constituency 23. Honourable Member, you have the floor. Hon. Patricia J. Gord on-Pamplin: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would just ask that this Honourable House send a letter of congratulations …
Thank you, Honourable Member. Does any other Honourable Member [wish to speak]? We recognise the Honourable Member from constituency 23. Honourable Member, you have the floor. Hon. Patricia J. Gord on-Pamplin: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would just ask that this Honourable House send a letter of congratulations to the managers and owners of the MarketPlace, who hos ted, along with the Corporation of Hamilton, the Santa [Clause] parade on S unday. I believe that it is som ething to which our young people look forward to on an annual basis. But I think, even more so, the parents. Because it is just delightful to see the Christmas spirit starting to roll in on us, even though it was hardly a breath since Thanksgiving. But, to have the Santa [Clause] parade and the exhibits, the participants were really stellar this year. I think they did an excellent job. And I think that the organisers need to be congratulated. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
The Spea ker: Thank you. Does any other Member wish to speak? We recognise the Deputy Premier. Sir, you have the floor.
Hon. Walter H. Roban: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would just like to have a note of congratul ations sent to . . . actually, sent, but at least to be on the record, if not sent, to the Corporation of St. George’s and the participants in their recent tree- lighting, which was attended by a number of Members of this House, the Honourable Members for constituencies 1 and 2, Mr. Kim Swan and Ms. Renee Ming. And the Consul General of the United States, and others, were there as guests, including His Excellency the Governor. I think this may have actually been the first sort of hol iday event for the season. It started in the east, where I guess many things have started already. And I was honoured to be there. I applaud their efforts to sort of have inaugural activities to begin this season, which is very important to many people in the country. So, just congratulations to them, the organi sers, the mayor, the staff and all of their people who helped and participated in putting the whole event t ogether. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThank you, Honourable Member. I recognise the Honourable Member from constituency 20. Honourable Member, you have the floor.
Ms. Susan E. JacksonThank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to send out very sad condolences to the family and friends of Charles Tatem, who, in my opinion, has gone way too soon, at the age of 71. Charles Tatem might be known by a number of us. 222 30 November 2018 Offici …
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to send out very sad condolences to the family and friends of Charles Tatem, who, in my opinion, has gone way too soon, at the age of 71. Charles Tatem might be known by a number of us. 222 30 November 2018 Offici al Hansard Report
Bermuda House of Assembly One, he enjoyed photography. He was one of Berm uda’s first sort of kitchen designers and had the “ Kitchen by Charles ” out on Serpentine Road for a number of years. And he also was very much involved with the Department of Community and Cultural Affairs in that he had a real passion for Bermuda architecture, and really made his legacy, or established his legacy, through his conversations about Bermuda’s architecture and how important it was to maintain the traditions that we have. So, I would very much like to send out to the community my sincere condolences. In addition, I would also like to send out condolences to the family and friends of Brian Anfossi, whose, again, was an untimely death. And, certainly, he was well known in the marine community. He was “Anfossi Marine” down at Mill Creek. And he was certainly the person who did not say no and was able to, I am sure (quote/unquote) “ save many a mariner ” by his repairing of engines and such. So, yes, my sincere condolences to both.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThank you, Honourable Member. Does any other Honourable Member wish to speak? I recognise the Honourable Member from constituency 22, is it?
The SpeakerThe SpeakerAll right, 21. Honourable Member Commissiong. You have the floor.
Mr. Rolfe CommissiongGood morning, Mr. Speaker, and thank you. Firstly, I would like to offer condolences to the family of Ms. Mariae Camela Agatha Dixon. She was my constituent, came from a Roman Catholic family, as well. And I know her family well. This i s a sad occasion. She was also …
Good morning, Mr. Speaker, and thank you. Firstly, I would like to offer condolences to the family of Ms. Mariae Camela Agatha Dixon. She was my constituent, came from a Roman Catholic family, as well. And I know her family well. This i s a sad occasion. She was also involved in this nascent sport of Olympic walking that has been gaining traction over the last few weeks. And she is going to be sadly missed by the fellow members of that growing organisation. She leaves to mourn her sister, Theresa, and her brother, Anthony. And, very quickly, Mr. Speaker, I was not able last week to get up to address this. I want to give heartfelt congratulations to Ms. Ariana Caines. She is the daughter of Tina Evans -Caines. She was called to the Middle T emple Bar last month. And she also became the recipient . . . (now just give me a second here) of a very important scholarship. Or, what I can say is that she just achieved the [ Dame Lois BrowneEvans Criminal ] Pupillage Award by the Bermuda Bar Associatio n, in partnership with the UK Bar Council and Carmelite Chambers. Ms. Caines is a former Berkeley Institute graduate, who earned her Bachelor of Laws degree at the University of Buckingham. I want to associate the whole House. And, clearly, she is avidly g oing to be walking in her grandmother’s shoes. In fact, very quickly, she said that her inspir ation to go into law was when her grandmother would come to visit the family over in Philadelphia, I believe, which is where they were living at the time. And the grandmother (Aunt Lois to me) would sit down and they would watch one of those criminal law shows. (What is the name of the most popular one?)
An Hon. Member An Hon. MemberLaw & Order.
Mr. Rolfe Commissiong[Law] & Order, for hours on end, the reruns. And that was her inspiration to go into this profession. Very quickly, I am pretty sure that, in addition to the professional expertise she is picking up, she will also be committed to issues of social and racial justice, in line …
The SpeakerThe SpeakerYou did not name who her grandmot her was. [Laughter]
Some Hon. Members Some Hon. MembersYes, yes.
Mr. Rolfe CommissiongDame Lois Browne- Evans, the great one. I said, Aunt Lois. That is how I refer to her. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The S peaker: Would any other Honourable Member like to speak? I recognise the Honourable Member Weeks. Honourable Member Weeks, are you on your feet? Yes? Okay. We …
Mr. Michael A. WeeksYes, Mr. Speaker. Thank you, and good morning to you. Mr. Speaker, I would like to have some congratulatory remarks sent to Mr. Clevonte Lodge and Ms. Sanaa Rae Morris, two teenagers who were pr esented by the Bermuda Pacers Track Club as the two Athletes of the Year. In …
Yes, Mr. Speaker. Thank you, and good morning to you. Mr. Speaker, I would like to have some congratulatory remarks sent to Mr. Clevonte Lodge and Ms. Sanaa Rae Morris, two teenagers who were pr esented by the Bermuda Pacers Track Club as the two Athletes of the Year. In particular, Mr. Speak er, I me ntion Mr. Lodge because he is a constituent of mine. And I have seen his growth from when he first started to do track, as a sprinter. His current coach, actually, is none other than our Director of Sport, Mr. Norbert Simons. So, I would like to shout out to him. He puts in a lot of time with Clevonte. I met him personally, Mr. Speaker, when I was down at the CARIFTA Games in March. And he was on track to make the final, but he ended up being injured. But his whole attitude was, I’ll be back. And I would like to tell everybody, keep your eye and ear on Mr. Clevonte Lodge, because he is going to be making Bermuda proud in the very near future. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
Bermuda House of Assembly The Speaker: Thank you, Member. Does any other Member wish to speak? I recognise t he Honourable Member Tyrrell. Honourable Member Tyrrell, you have the floor.
Mr. Neville S. TyrrellGood morning, Mr. Speaker, and thank you very much. Good morning, all. Mr. Speaker, life has not been very kind to the Bermuda Technical Institute alumni this week. We have had the passing of two of our members. So, I would certainly like to add my condolences to the passing …
Good morning, Mr. Speaker, and thank you very much. Good morning, all. Mr. Speaker, life has not been very kind to the Bermuda Technical Institute alumni this week. We have had the passing of two of our members. So, I would certainly like to add my condolences to the passing of Charles Tatem, better known to us as “Chilli.” Chilli Tatem was one of the few persons who did not look like me. They went to Tech around my time. And he was a very talented technical drawer, a person in technical drawing. So, obviously, he was drawn to his kitchen endeavours in his later life. And he was certainly the sort of person who was not afraid to give his opinion, even though he was outnumbered in many cases. But I am sure he will be missed. The other person in the Tech alumni who will be missed sadly is Leonard Dayle Wendell Butterfield, who was a character during his school days, and carried on as a character after that. And he will certainly be missed. So, I ask if a letter of condolences could be sent to his family. And, finally, Mr. Speaker, a very close family association, Ms. Dorothy Louise Cann. She was a very strong Seventh- day Adventist person, which runs in her family, as well, throughout the rest of the family. She was, I think, in her early 90s, and a very, very nice person, a very nice person to be around. She gave me good advice on many occasions. So, she will certainly be missed by myself and the rest of the family. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThank you, Honourable Member. Does any other Honourable Member wish to speak? We recognise the Honourable Member from constituency 10. You have the floor. Hon. Michael H. Dunkley: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would like to be associated with the condolences given by Honourable Members who came before …
Thank you, Honourable Member. Does any other Honourable Member wish to speak? We recognise the Honourable Member from constituency 10. You have the floor. Hon. Michael H. Dunkley: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would like to be associated with the condolences given by Honourable Members who came before me, and to the family of Charles Tatem, who passed away recently. I would also like to thank the Honourable Member from constituency 11. I often do not agree with the op- eds he writes in the paper, but I thought this one was spot -on. So I thank him for taking the time to recognise that. Mr. Tatem, I had known a long time, and I always found that he was a stalwart of our community who was willing to get involved in our community. And that speaks volumes for him. I would also like to send condolences to the family of Dayle Butterfield, who passed away very un-expectedly earlier this week, and to his loving wife, Jennifer, and his children whom he leaves behind. He was beset by illness and passed quickly. I had the pleasure of having him, in recent years, as a constit uent. I am not sure that he voted for me. But I certainly enjoyed the political conversations we had, and I think I had him close to voting for me, Mr. Speaker. I r emember the last time I was at the house, he was fixing a dinner. And he was sitting off there in the kitchen, making it up. And it was hard for me to get out of there because the smell of the food and the conversation were very enjoyable. So I just saw his wife probably on Tuesday, I believe, about two hours before he took ill and passed quickly. And certainly, gone too soon, and it shows how fragile our world is, quite often, Mr. Speaker. On a brighter note, I would like to be assoc iated with the thanks to the MarketPlace for the [Santa Claus] Parade. And also, in this season, where people think about giving to staff at the Hamilton Princess for reaching out to Salvation Army and offering meals for the needy during Thanksgiving period. And I would assume that most Members, or all Members of the House, would like to be associated with the congratulations sent to our champion, Nikki Bascome, on winning the bout on Saturday night up at Fairmont Southampton, coming back from a devas tating defeat some months ago. Nikki has stuck to it, and congratulations to him on winning the fight. And I look for many, many more victories. And congratulations to him on sticking to it, separating himself when he had to from the community, getting the training he required and picking himself back up. And now he has a belt to his name. And I expect that there will be many, many more victories, as well, Mr. Speaker. I am proud of him, and congratulations.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThank you. Does any other Member w ish to speak? We recognise the Honourable Member. Minister Foggo, you have the floor. Hon. Lovitta F. Foggo: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. A few congratulatory remarks. One, Mr. Mark “Burger” Jennings, who hosted a Sport Bermuda Magazine Awards up at Ruth Seaton James …
Thank you. Does any other Member w ish to speak? We recognise the Honourable Member. Minister Foggo, you have the floor.
Hon. Lovitta F. Foggo: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. A few congratulatory remarks. One, Mr. Mark “Burger” Jennings, who hosted a Sport Bermuda Magazine Awards up at Ruth Seaton James [Centre for Performing Arts]. It was an excellent event, and, hopefully, the first of many. And many sporting figures, mostly older, but young and old, were recognised for their contribution to sports. I would like to associate the Deputy Premier with those remarks, and also MP Neville Tyrrell, Minister Caines, MP Ming, MP Kim Swan, and Minister Zane De Silva. It was an absolute excellent event. I also would like to congratulate, through association, the young man, Mr. Lodge, and Ms. Morris, on their award just given to them through the Pacers Club. I would like to, likewise, say congratulations to Nikki Bascome. 224 30 November 2018 Offici al Hansard Report
Bermuda House of Assembly I did put out a press release regarding that. But whenever we see our local sporting talent reign supreme, they deserve the recognition and honour that goes along with that, because I think anyone who has been committed to athletics of any type recogni ses the commitment and dedication that are required to get to the highest of heights. So, Mr. Speaker, with those remarks made, I will take my seat.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThank you, Honourable Member. Does any other Honourable Member wish to speak? We recognise the Honourable Member from constituency 11. Honourable Member, you have the floor.
Mr. Christopher FamousBut one of the things I have learned from him or about him is that he even goes to people’s yards who will never, ever vote for him. And I said to myself, Let me do the same thing. People I thought would not vote for me.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerAre you congratulating him this mor ning?
The SpeakerThe SpeakerWell, I’m trying to follow where your congratulations are going. [Laughter]
Mr. Christopher FamousI am giving an early obit uary. But anyway, in doing so, I meet a lot of new people whom I normally did not get to meet. And one of the persons was Mr. Charles Tatem. And what struck me with him is that we both had a love for …
I am giving an early obit uary. But anyway, in doing so, I meet a lot of new people whom I normally did not get to meet. And one of the persons was Mr. Charles Tatem. And what struck me with him is that we both had a love for tec hnical things —architecture, technical institute, and just the fact that we want people in Bermuda to get into the technical trades. About a month ago, he went down to one of my houses and drew up plans to do a kitchen for me. I was supposed to give him a deposit this week. I do not think I am going to do that. But I want to say that this man exemplif ied tradesmen in Bermuda. And my last obituary would be towards Mr. Dayle Butterfield, someone who was considered a cousin to me. He was in my yard every week, and at BELCO every week, as well. And this man, he would light up the room wherever he went. He also was a skilled tradesman. So, I just want to say that it is very important for us as politicians to always go to ever ybody’s house, even if we think they might not vote for us. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThank you, Honourable Member. I rec ognise the Honourable Member from constituency 1. Honourable Member, you have the floor.
Mrs. Renee MingGood morning, Mr. Speaker and listening audience. I, too, would just like to add to the obituary notes for Mr. Charles Tatem. I met Mr. Tatem when I joined the Corporation of St. George’s as a counsellor. And he was sitting on the St. George’s Preservation Authority. So, I knew …
Good morning, Mr. Speaker and listening audience. I, too, would just like to add to the obituary notes for Mr. Charles Tatem. I met Mr. Tatem when I joined the Corporation of St. George’s as a counsellor. And he was sitting on the St. George’s Preservation Authority. So, I knew that the one thing we had in common was the admiration he had for St. George’s. I have always admired the fact that he was v ery strong and definitely advocated for the history and the heri tage of the old town through the Preservation Author ity. So, I would just like to let his family know that they too are in our thoughts and prayers. On a happier note, Mr. Speaker, I would li ke to congratulate the St. George’s Cricket Club. One of the events for their Founders Day Week was having a panel discussion on the influence of women in sports clubs. And it was admirable to see seven women sit on a panel, who are all actively involved i n the spor ting clubs in this country and who are nurturing our children, and note that they had integral roles. They spoke on the love they have for their clubs. And they also spoke on the challenges that they see in club life. And those of you who have been involved in club life know that it is not an easy path to take. But I truly do encourage them and ask them to remain steadfast in what they are doing. Also, Mr. Speaker, I would like to congratulate the East End Mini Yacht Club for their annual seniors tea, and the St. George’s Seventh- day Adventist
Bermuda House of Assembly Church for their annual Thanksgiving Day service, which was held last week. Mr. Speaker, just a quick congratulations to the Corporation of St. George’s. I know the comments were already made, but to the w orkmen who worked very hard to make sure that the town looked absolut ely beautiful this time of the year, because I am pretty sure that there is nowhere else in Bermuda that looks like St. George’s right now. So, Mr. Speaker, I would like to have messages sent to those entities. Thank you very much.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThank you, Honourable Member. Does any other Honourable Member wish to speak? We recognise the Honourable Member from constituency 2, is it?
The SpeakerThe SpeakerHonourable Member Swan, you have the floor.
Mr. Hubert (Kim) E. SwanThank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would like to be associated with the comments just made by my colleague from constituency 1, particularly as it relates to St. George’s Cricket Cl ub and the Town of St. George’s. I associate the Honourable Member from constituen-cy 3, the Minister Foggo, …
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would like to be associated with the comments just made by my colleague from constituency 1, particularly as it relates to St. George’s Cricket Cl ub and the Town of St. George’s. I associate the Honourable Member from constituen-cy 3, the Minister Foggo, with those remarks, as well. The Mayor of the Town of St. George’s does outstand ing work. And, in addition to the lighting of the town, which has become an annual ritual now, she also had her annual Christmas party last evening. And we are having the [Christmas] Boat Parade on Satur-day. And I cannot think of a better location for a boat parade than the Town of St. George’s. Looking down from above, I think the only little town that could rival St. George’s is the little town of Bethlehem. [Laughter]
Mr. Hubert (Kim) E. SwanAs I look down, I often think of that miracle location. And, Mr. Speaker, I would like a letter of condolences sent to the family of the late Arthur Fox, from the Cut Road community. I associate the Member from constituencies 1 and 3 with those remarks, as well. Mr. …
As I look down, I often think of that miracle location. And, Mr. Speaker, I would like a letter of condolences sent to the family of the late Arthur Fox, from the Cut Road community. I associate the Member from constituencies 1 and 3 with those remarks, as well. Mr. Fox was a friend of mine. I knew his father even better, before him, the late Arthur Fox, as well as his aunt. A nd they were dear friends of mine. And I know many are saddened by his passing, as am I. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThank you, Honourable Member. Does any other Honourable Member [wish to speak]? I recognise the Honourable Member from constituency 4. Honourable Member, you have the floor.
Mrs. Tinee FurbertYes, good morning. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I want to send congratulations to the group, or organisation, which helped the Race and Resistance: [Understanding Bermuda Today ] symposium. We had the special guests, our fellow MP, Walton Brown, and MP Derrick Burgess, who sat on some of the panels. They …
Yes, good morning. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I want to send congratulations to the group, or organisation, which helped the Race and Resistance: [Understanding Bermuda Today ] symposium. We had the special guests, our fellow MP, Walton Brown, and MP Derrick Burgess, who sat on some of the panels. They did this in collaboration with Bermuda College, the Human Rights Commission, and the Oxford Centre for Global History. And it was an event that was well-done and well -received in our community, with topics such as Founding of Bermuda and the Fight for Freedom; Struggle for Desegregation: Post - emancipation identity and immigration; The Pursuit of Equality and Justice: Past and Present; and R esista nce and Transformation Today: What does that look like? So, it was a very enlightening talk, a sympos ium that left you with many questions that you wanted answered. It was also a great group of panellists, Bermudians at that, who were able to share a great deal of history about Bermuda. Of course, I am hoping that they will continue with this, because there are many more other people who would like to have the opportunity to share their story and their knowledge of Bermuda’s history. Mr. Speaker, I also w ant to congratulate the organisation, Project 100, which had a Black & White Ball last weekend. And what is great about Project 100 is that they raise money to house the developmentally disabled in our community so that they no longer have to live in insti tutions, but can actually live in our community and be part of our community. What I also like about this organisation is that, whenever they put on their ball, they actually involve persons with developmental disabilities and they are able to come to this event and be part of the festivities. There are organisations who have fundraising events for persons with disabilities, but they never invite them. And I find that to be very shameful, be-cause we will raise money for them, but we do not invite them to come or allow them to come. And they are a part of our community. So, I would like to just congratulate Project 100 for continuing to be real in their quest of assisting persons with disabilities. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThank you, Honourable M ember. Does any other Member . . . ? I recognise the Honourable Member from constituency 19. Honourable Member, you have the floor. Hon. Jeanne J. Atherden: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. 226 30 November 2018 Offici al Hansard Report Bermuda House of Assembly Mr. Speaker, I …
Thank you, Honourable M ember. Does any other Member . . . ? I recognise the Honourable Member from constituency 19. Honourable Member, you have the floor. Hon. Jeanne J. Atherden: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. 226 30 November 2018 Offici al Hansard Report
Bermuda House of Assembly Mr. Speaker, I would like to have congratul ations sent to the founders of the 15th annual Bermuda Railway Trek (walk) that was held on Tuesday. I went last year. Unfortunately, I did not go this year. But it is important for us to recognise that all of the donations go directly towards Bermudian students attending Georgia St ate University, pursuing a management or actuarial science undergraduate degree. And it is nice to know that people who are in the industry get out and walk. And you would be surprised at how many people are understanding now that there is an opportunity, and this is the way to help fund it. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThank you, Honourable Member. Does any other Honourable Member wish to speak? No other? I recognise the Honourable Member from constituency 29. Honourable Member, you have the f loor. Hon. Zane J. S. De Silva: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would like the House to send congratulations to …
Thank you, Honourable Member. Does any other Honourable Member wish to speak? No other? I recognise the Honourable Member from constituency 29. Honourable Member, you have the f loor.
Hon. Zane J. S. De Silva: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I would like the House to send congratulations to a young man by the name of Jaden Smith . He was recently appointed Head Boy of Port Royal School. This young man is also the House Vice Captain. And he plays football for PHC [Pembroke Hamilton Club]. Jaden Smith, who is none other than the son of my sister , Penny , Mr. Speaker, has a passion for football. I am trying to get him to change his teams to come out and play for Somerset Eagles. That was my old team, Mr. Speaker. And, of course, he is an ardent supporter of Manchester United.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerIs he? Hon. Zane J. S. De Silva: I am trying to get him to become a fan of Liverpool. [Inaudible interjection] Hon. Zane J. S. De Silva: That is right. But he is doing very well, Mr. Speaker, and I think that congratulations are certainly due. And whilst I …
Is he?
Hon. Zane J. S. De Silva: I am trying to get him to become a fan of Liverpool. [Inaudible interjection]
Hon. Zane J. S. De Silva: That is right. But he is doing very well, Mr. Speaker, and I think that congratulations are certainly due. And whilst I am on my feet, Mr. Speaker, there have been congratulations and thanks given to MarketPlace for the [Santa Claus] Parade. I would like to join in with colleagues who have given that credit. But I would also like to give thanks to all of the volunteers who helped organise that event, Mr. Speaker. There are many, many, many people who make that whole parade a success. So, I would like to giv e them thanks, as well. And whilst I am on my feet, Mr. Speaker, I would also like to thank the branch members of constituency 29 for hosting yet another seniors tea party this weekend just past. And they do an excellent job. And, as you know, Mr. Speaker , it has been going on for 12 years. And our seniors, not only in constituen-cy 29, but all over the Island, come to take part. And I would like to give them a big round of thanks for what they have done and continue to do.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThank you. Would any other Honourable Member wish to speak? No other Honourable Member? That brings us to a close of condolences and congratulatory speec hes. MATTERS OF PRIVILEGE
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThere are none. PERSONAL EXPLANATIONS
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThere are none. NOTICE OF MOTIONS FOR THE ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE ON MAT TERS OF URGENT PUBLIC IMPORTANCE
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThere are none. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS GOVERNMENT BILLS
The SpeakerThe SpeakerI am sorry. You read it along quickly that time. [Inaudible interjections and laughter ]
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThere are five Government Bills to be introduced this morning. The first is in the name of the Minister of Finance. I believe the first two are yours, Minister. Would you like to introduce your Bills? FIRST READINGS BERMUDA MONETARY AUTHORITY AMENDMENT (NO. 3) ACT 2018 INSURANCE AMENDMENT (NO. 3) …
There are five Government Bills to be introduced this morning. The first is in the name of the Minister of Finance. I believe the first two are yours, Minister. Would you like to introduce your Bills?
INSURANCE AMENDMENT (NO. 3) ACT 2018 Hon. Curtis L. Dickinson: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am introducing the following Bills for their first readings so that they may be placed on the Order Paper for the next day of meeting: the first is the Bermuda Monetary Authority Amendment (No. 3) Act
Bermuda House of Assembly 2018; and the second is the Insurance Amendment (No. 3) Act 2018.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThank you, Minister. The next is in the name of the Minister of Health. Minister, would you like to introduce your Bills? FIRST READINGS ALLIED HEALTH PROFESSIONS AMENDMENT ACT 2018 CRIMINAL CODE (SEX OFFENDER MANAGEMENT) AMENDMENT ACT 2018 CHILDREN AMENDMENT ACT 2018 Hon. Kim N. Wilson: Yes. Thank you, Mr. …
Thank you, Minister. The next is in the name of the Minister of Health. Minister, would you like to introduce your Bills?
Hon. Kim N. Wilson: Yes. Thank you, Mr. S peaker. I am introducing the following Bills for their first readings so that they may be placed on the Order Paper for the next day of meeting, namely, the Allied Health Professions Amendment Act 2018; the Crim inal Code (Sex Offenders Management) Amendment Act 2018; and the Children Amendment Act 2018.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThank you, Minister. Those are the five Bills that have been intr oduced. We now move on. OPPOSITION BILLS
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThere are none. PRIVATE MEMBERS’ BILLS
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThere are none. NOTICES OF MOTIONS
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThere are none. ORDERS OF THE DAY
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThe understanding is that there are four Orders that will be taken up today. The first Order is actually the second Order on today’s paper. ANNOUNCEMENT BY THE SPEAKER APOLOGY
The SpeakerThe SpeakerBut, before we actually get there, let me just acknowledge that the MP Cole Simons had also indicated his absence today. It was not on the Order Paper, but I do feel it should be acknowledged because he did inform us. The second Order which will be taken up t …
But, before we actually get there, let me just acknowledge that the MP Cole Simons had also indicated his absence today. It was not on the Order Paper, but I do feel it should be acknowledged because he did inform us. The second Order which will be taken up t oday is the Customs Tariff Amendment (No. 3) Act 2018, in the name of the Minister of Finance. Minister, would you like to proceed with your matter now? Hon. Curtis L. Dickinson: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. With the Governor’s r ecommendation, I move that the Bill entitled Customs Tariff Amendment (No. 3) Act 2018 be now read the second time.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerNo objections to that, right? Continue, Minister. BILL SECOND READING CUSTOMS TARIFF AMENDMENT (NO. 3) ACT 2018 Hon. Curt is L. Dickinson: Mr. Speaker, Honourable Members are requested now to give consideration to the Bill entitled Customs Tariff Amendment (No. 3) Act 2018.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerContinue. Hon. Curtis L. Dickinson: Mr. Speaker, the Bill pr oposes to amend the Customs Tariff Act 1970, the principal Act, with measures that include the following: 1. amendment of CPC 4229 in the Fifth Schedule to the principal Act , end-use duty concession for goods for local commercial manufacturing; …
Continue.
Hon. Curtis L. Dickinson: Mr. Speaker, the Bill pr oposes to amend the Customs Tariff Act 1970, the principal Act, with measures that include the following: 1. amendment of CPC 4229 in the Fifth Schedule to the principal Act , end-use duty concession for goods for local commercial manufacturing; and 2. amendment in the Fifth Schedule to the pri ncipal Act by inserting new CPC 4232, End-Use Duty Relief for Goods for seniors’ housing. Mr. Speaker, I must highlight that following further consideration of the scope and certification of the new CPC 4232 I will be proposing certain amendments on the floor, which I will outline shortly. Mr. Speaker, I now turn to the measures of the Bill that amend Fifth Schedule CPC 4229. Hon-ourable Members will recall that CPC 4229 was i nserted in the Fifth Schedule of the principal Act by the Customs Tariff Amendment Act 2017. CPC 4229 was designed to give the Minister of Finance greater flex ibility in promoting manufacturing undertakings carried on in Bermuda, especially where the undertaking is likely to create new jobs and be of benefit to the general economy of Bermuda. Mr. Speaker, currently, the low 5 per cent concessionary rate under CPC 4229 is available in respect of all goods, provided that such goods are imported for and used only in the local commercial manufacture of goods by an approved business, and 228 30 November 2018 Offici al Hansard Report
Bermuda House of Assembly provided further that the goods must be incorporated in locally manufactured goods. Mr. Speaker, as it stands, CPC 4229, unhel pfully, affords the Minister no discretion to restrict the scope of qualifying goods in respect of any particular approved busi ness. In order to address this issue, the Bill provides the Minister of Finance with discretion to determine the scope and qualifying goods in any approved business notice made by him under CPC 4229. This will give the Minister of Finance better flexibility in the administration of the concessionary 5 per cent duty rate. Mr. Speaker, I will now progress to the measures of the Bill that insert new CPC 4232 in the Fifth Schedule to the principal Act. Honourable Members will recall that, on the 19th of July 2018, the Premier and former Minister of Finance gave a national address to the people of Bermuda, in which the Government promised to take steps to support seniors ageing at home. One of the measures proposed by Government is the creation of a new duty rel ief for goods for improved projects to seniors’ homes. The proposed duty relief is intended to encourage install ation of fittings and fixtures that will enhance senior mobility, safety and comfort while at home. It is i ntended that the duty exemption shoul d also apply to existing and new residential care homes, as they also play an important part in Bermuda’s health care sy stem. Mr. Speaker, in order to ensure adequate control of the proposed duty relief, it is proposed that the Department of Ageing and Di sability Services [ADS] should certify the particular goods that will qualify for the duty relief in any given case. It is intended that the Ageing and Disability Services Department certificate should be then be presented to Customs in support of any appl ication for duty relief. Further consideration of the relief will specify that qualifying goods must be installed only on the premises specified in the ADS certificate, and that qualifying goods must be used for the purposes of enhancing seniors’ mobility, safety and comfort. While the new CPC 4232 benefits seniors, we will propose an amendment to allow the benefit of this relief to extend to disabled persons, as well, whether they live at home or in a residential care home, and to provide published guidel ines that the Director of the Department of Ageing and Disability Services will follow in certifying goods as eligible for the relief. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThank you, Minister. Does any other Member wish to speak? We recognise the Honourable Member from constituency 23. Honourable Member Gordon- Pamplin, you have the floor. Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I thank the Minister for his overview of the intent of this Customs …
Thank you, Minister. Does any other Member wish to speak? We recognise the Honourable Member from constituency 23. Honourable Member Gordon- Pamplin, you have the floor. Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I thank the Minister for his overview of the intent of this Customs Tariff Amendment (No. 3) A ct 2018. He ended where I wanted to begin, because, obviously, having a Department of Ageing and Disability and having an amendment to a Bill that speaks to goods for seniors’ housing and not relating to those with disabilities would be, obviously, som ething that was a blatant oversight, in my estimation. Especially having just heard the Honourable Member from constituency 4 speak to the congratul atory messages to Project 100 and the jobs which they do for the disabled community, it just seemed inconsisten t and incongruent that we would have a Bill that ignored them. So, the Minister has corrected that by indicating that he wants to do a floor amendment to include those disabled people and the goods that are going to assist in their comfort and their mobili ty situ ation. I think specifically of a place such as Summerhaven, which does not necessarily house seniors, but certainly may require the installation of specialised equipment in order to accommodate the disabled, or physically challenged, individuals. S o, it was important that I saw that particular amendment being made. So, I am pleased to hear that. Mr. Speaker, the seniors ageing at home, very clearly, is something that we support. It is something, the concept of it, which was certainly started under our administration to indicate that we wanted to enhance and embrace anything that was going to assist our seniors in their comfort and their ability to live and age at home effectively. Mr. Speaker, in addition to that, we also want to ensure that there is an incentive for anyone who decides that they want to build new seniors’ homes or new homes for physically challenged individuals, that there would be some kind of carrot, as it were, to say, Please. We need this. We will have an ageing popul ation as t ime goes on. You know, we have a declining birth rate, but an incredibly rapidly ageing community. So, the seniors’ homes that are presently in existence, we may find that we do not have sufficient capacity to be able to accommodate what the ultimate need is going to be. And in forward thinking, we obviously have to be able to provide for that burgeoning demand that we anticipate, and therefore [we need] to have duty relief for goods that are coming in, in order that developers and entrepreneurs may have t he opportunity to build additional nursing homes of a quality that would be appropriate for seniors’ living. So, we certainly support this. I look forward, obviously, to the amendment that the Minister has indicated both in his comment, and now we actuall y have received a copy of the amendment that he i ntends to make.
Bermuda House of Assembly My only other observation is with respect to CPC 4229 in the Fifth Schedule. And that is the one which the Minister referred to as being able to broaden his discretion with respect to what i s a qualifying good that the Minister may approve for manufacturing businesses. And the only thing that the Minister did not mention in his comment —I mean, that I have a question for ––is whether, in fact, when he has the oversight to make the determination as to what is appropriate, I did not get the understanding of whose recommendations for concessions he will take into account. I certainly would not anticipate that the Mini ster, during the course of his very busy day and very important schedule, would be stopping to vet every application that comes through. So, presumably, by the time an application comes through to his desk for sign- off and approval, somewhere along the line, somebody in the manufacturing industry would have been able to have an oversight to say, This is an appropriate manufacturing entity for which we would i nvite the Minister to use his discretion to consider a preferential customs tariff. So, those are my only observations and concerns. And, certainly, from our perspective, we certainly do support the comfort of our seniors to make sure that, whatever we can do to make their lives easy, and, more importantly, to make the lives of those who have to care for them, to care for seniors, in a commercial environment, people who are going to be utilising the benefit of this customs tariff relief, we certainly want to support their comfort. I did look at some of the end- use restrictions and conditions. And I guess I can speak to that more specifically when we get into Committee, because we are talking about the residential care homes. But it is only for people who are over 65—I mean, a senior being a person who is over 65. So, I would look to see that the amendment also shall have included som eone, irrespective of age, who has a disability. Those needs also should to be considered. So, those are my observations and concerns. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThank you, Honourable Member. Does any other Honourable Member wish to speak? I recognise the Honourable Minister Wilson. You hav e the floor. Hon. Kim N. Wilson: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. And, I too would like to join in on this debate, for a number of reasons, first and foremost, …
Thank you, Honourable Member. Does any other Honourable Member wish to speak? I recognise the Honourable Minister Wilson. You hav e the floor.
Hon. Kim N. Wilson: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. And, I too would like to join in on this debate, for a number of reasons, first and foremost, because it is going to be a tremendous asset to those persons who are in our senior community, including the one or two who may actually be present here. And also, with respect to CPC 4229, the amendments that are being proposed under CPC 4229, you will recall during the debate when we spoke about the sugar tax and the implementation of that, there was some concern which was raised by members of the community as it related to the small bus inessperson, such as the home bakers or the candy makers and so forth. So, I know the Minister will address this in further detail, and in particular when we go clause by c lause. But it does provide clarity and allows for the Minister, in his absolute discretion, as is indicated in the legislation, to provide that 5 per cent concession for that relevant, approved business establishment. Now, just turning to the other sections with respect to the amendments as it relates to the prov ision for seniors, Mr. Speaker, there is no doubt that everybody is familiar with our alarming statistics. And I am just quoting from the statistics data of 2010 when the Census said that there wer e 8,639 seniors aged 65 and over, which represented 13 per cent of our population. However, it is anticipated that, by 2030, which is almost tomorrow, we will see an increase of almost 22 per cent of our population being over the age of 65, with 25 per cent representing a seniors population by 2050. So, clearly, as the Honourable Member who just took her seat spoke to, we are see-ing an ever -increasing ageing population, in Bermuda and worldwide. That is a phenomenon that is not known just here in Bermuda. A nd then, of course, we have the declining birth rates. So, Mr. Speaker, there are a number of reasons why there is a benefit for seniors to age at home. And anything that we can do to help support that, obviously, is why the mischief that is being created with respect to this piece of legislation. There was a study, Mr. Speaker, in 2015, somewhat dated, in the United States, that found that 80 per cent of all seniors who [when] asked [about where to live, said they] wished to remain at home. They wanted to age in place at home, as opposed to in a facility. And there are a number of benefits to that, Mr. Speaker. Growing in age in your own home and in your own comfortable surroundings, obviously, has tremendous benefits to your mental health, which, clearly , affects your physical health. You can wake up when you like to. You can eat when you like to. You can cook whatever you want to eat. You have no r estrictions in that regard. You have personal freedom. You can have family and friends visit you at all hour s of the night or day. You can sleep in until twelve o’clock if you want and get up when you want, and drink your coffee, and the like. So, there are a number of benefits to ageing well in place, physically, as well as emotionally and psychologically. Also, Mr. Speaker, unfortunately, we recognise that the cost of living in a care facility is crippling. On average, a facility can cost anywhere from $5,000 up to $11,000 a month here in Bermuda. And many, many families cannot afford that. So, if they are abl e to have a concession such as this, this important concession, this will allow them to adapt their homes so that the senior is more comfortable, is safer, has bet230 30 November 2018 Offici al Hansard Report
Bermuda House of Assembly ter mobility and the ability to remain at home, then, obviously, that does decrease the neces sity for having that senior having to reside in a care facility. Another [factor], Mr. Speaker, is that, unfort unately, there is an increase in ailments and an i ncrease in contracting certain diseases in seniors. B ecause, as we get older our immune system drops ; it decreases. And, therefore, there is more likelihood of the prospect of somebody contracting a particular di sease and the like whilst they are residing in these residential facilities. So, there is a host of reasons why it is more beneficial for us to support legislation like this which will allow a senior to age in place. Mr. Speaker, there are a number of benefits to the adaptation of a property. So, for example, if we have a home and the senior is fairly mobile, we can make adaptations to the property that will, again, allow for the senior to age in place in their own comfortable surroundings. Small changes can make a big difference in the life of a senior residing in their home and ageing in place, and it will allow them to continue to live co mfortably in their own homes. Such things as installing shower ramps and shower installations, ramps within the property —if you have, perhaps, a step to get up or a staircase, you can do ramps. You can provide lower access in the entranceways just in case a senior, perhaps, has a wheelchair or the like. You can get stair lifts. You see them on TV now, where you can get these lifts that go up a couple of flights of stairs. You can install the standing tubs, widen the doorways, as well as install toilets [on the entrance level of the home]. These are the types of things that are going to be looked at with respect to a concession. The Ageing and Disability Services, which comes under my Mini stry, have a very capable staff, very committed to this. And they are s upporting this exercise, as well. And they will assist in driving this exercise by putting t ogether the criteria and the like. So, I am really pleased to be able to support this Bill, working in tandem with my colleague to my right, the Minister of Finance, to allow for seniors to be able to age well in place, for it will be more cost -effective for their families, for them to be surrounded by their loved ones, who can visit at any time and any place. They have the freedom and the comfort to live at home. So, I support this legislation. And thank you for your time, Mr. Speaker.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThank you, Minister. Does any other Member wish to speak? We recognise the Honourable Member from constituency 19. Honourable Member, you have the floor. Hon. Jeanne J. Atherden: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Obviously, on this side, as my colleague said from the start, we support this legislation because, when I …
Thank you, Minister. Does any other Member wish to speak? We recognise the Honourable Member from constituency 19. Honourable Member, you have the floor.
Hon. Jeanne J. Atherden: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Obviously, on this side, as my colleague said from the start, we support this legislation because, when I was the Minister of Health and Seniors, these were some of the things that we actually worked on. And as the Minister said, not only did we work on this, but we started the benefits so that people could work at home. They could live at home and actually have their insurance cover this. And so, when you start tal king about people living at home, you start to realise that, if you are going to have seniors living at home, you have to modify their premises. And you have to be able to make sure that your home is actually able to house them. So, from my perspective, I am really pleased also that, even though we have not got the enhanced care for disabled people, perhaps that will be som ething that will come next — [Inaudible interjections]
Hon. Jeanne J. Atherden: May I finish, please? Thank you. I am talking about having insurance for dis abled people. Perhaps that wil l come next. I am not talking about this. I know what I am talking about.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerWell, speak to the Chair. You will be all right. Speak to the Chair. Hon. Jeanne J. Atherden: I realise that it is i mportant. And if we are going to talk about the amen dment, then I guess I should maybe make the notation right now before we come …
Well, speak to the Chair. You will be all right. Speak to the Chair. Hon. Jeanne J. Atherden: I realise that it is i mportant. And if we are going to talk about the amen dment, then I guess I should maybe make the notation right now before we come to Committee that, if you are changing the description, the description still should be “ goods for seniors and disabled housing. ” That top part has not been changed. So, perhaps the Minister can change it.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerNo, you can save that for Committee. Save that for committee. Hon. Jeanne J. Atherden: But he can work on it before we get to Committee.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerOkay. Hon. Jeanne J. Atherden: And I just want to say that it is important for us to recognise that seniors, or those persons who want to keep seniors in their homes, will be very much able to take advantage of this. But the question in my mind was, people …
Okay. Hon. Jeanne J. Atherden: And I just want to say that it is important for us to recognise that seniors, or those persons who want to keep seniors in their homes, will be very much able to take advantage of this. But the question in my mind was, people like Medical House and other places that actually bring in a lot of this equipment, will they be able to apply to have the r eduction when they are doing their customs duty appl ications? Because, obviously, this stuff could go to seniors. Or is it going to be one of those things, because I guess you could put a bar and other things in a home, and the person who is in there is not actually 65. Or would it be that it will only be if you are importing it, and you are the duty importer, as opposed to using something that actually was imported and you are
Bermuda House of Assembly buying it? So, I just wondered if that could be clarified, because the recognition is that it would be a shame that a senior or the senior’s family who has to go and buy some of these things, and does not import them, [may] not have the benefit of being able to get the d uty relief. And I say this because I am mindful of som ething that the Minister said when they were talking about the sugar thing. When we recognise that, som etimes, people are buying stuff on the Island, and they were going to get some benefit for duty because they could prove that they were a manufacturer, is it poss ible, maybe, that if you are going to buy this for your home that you could get the 5 per cent [duty]? Is the Minister not prepared to give someone like a commercial importer the 5 per cent duty because something like a towel bar and something else could be used for younger people? So, I wondered if that could be addressed. And I just want to say I am not going to bel abour the fact that all of these things are part of the progress of recogni sing that the more that you can make seniors stay active and the more that you can make sure that they are mobile and protected, it pr events people from having falls and accidents, et cetera. Because we start to realise that what happens, most of all, is t hat when people fall, when they start to lose their mobility . . . that is when things happen, after that. Afterwards, they are either hospitalised or they start to slow down. And, therefore, their lives are shortened. So, anything that can be done to protect their mobility is very important. And I am not going to go on and on about the fact that this is good and we support it. And I look forward to response to my questions.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThank you, Honourable Member. Does any other Honourable Member wish to speak? We recognise the Honourable Member Furbert, from constituency 6. Honourable Member, you have the floor. Hon. Wayne L. Furbert: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. First of all, let me congratulate the Minister of Finance and the Minister of Health …
Thank you, Honourable Member. Does any other Honourable Member wish to speak? We recognise the Honourable Member Furbert, from constituency 6. Honourable Member, you have the floor.
Hon. Wayne L. Furbert: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. First of all, let me congratulate the Minister of Finance and the Minister of Health for the work that is being done today. I think it is very progressive, the direction that we are heading. I would also like to thank two particular Members, the Honourable Tinee Furbert and Derrick Bur-gess, for some of the roles that they played in some of the suggestions for the amendments. Of course, they are Hamilton Parish, which makes it reasonable why some things move in that direction. But, Mr. Speaker, I heard the Honourable Member, and I appreciate the Honourable Member from constituency 20, say that t hey were working on this. It took five years to work on this. Do you know how long it took me to work on this? Three hours. I just find it quite extraordinary. It took five years for the Honourable Members to work on this, and the tec hnical officer realised —
An Hon. Member An Hon. MemberIt took you three hours to find the file. Hon. Wayne L. Furbert: It took us three hours to sit down and work on this — [Inaudible interjections] Hon. Wayne L. Furbert: In other words, when the Government makes a decision, we make a decision and we work on this. …
It took you three hours to find the file.
Hon. Wayne L. Furbert: It took us three hours to sit down and work on this — [Inaudible interjections]
Hon. Wayne L. Furbert: In other words, when the Government makes a decision, we make a decision and we work on this. We do not take five years to work on a certain project. So, I would like to recognise and thank the— [Inaudible interjections]
Hon. Wayne L. Furbert: It took three hours. Yes, three hours instead of five years of working on this particular amendment. But there is one thing, Mr. Speaker, which I think we could go further on. I think there is one thing which we could go further on. I think we have recognised the seniors. I think it is great, this clause, the disabled again ar e recognised by the Members from Hamilton Parish. But the part about the director —I will be wearing my hat as Chairman of the Efficiency Committee within Government —[says] that the director has to go out and verify everything. That is not eff icient. I think we, and any further Members of Government, should be bringing it forward, recognising those items. The Minister mentioned some items — towel racks and stuff, those things, and stuff for the bathroom. Identify the items that we need, which the seniors, and the disabled can utilise. Instead of having someone, every five minutes, running out and signing a certificate so that they can go to Customs and get their towel racks and things like that. So that is one thing I think that we could work on, and hopefully , we will bring that amendment. Because if we make it more efficient for people instead of going through the agony of trying to find the director, who is also already busy, then I think we can make it much easier for our seniors and the dis abled. So, Mr. Speaker, with those few words, I will take my seat. Thank you.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThank you, Member. Does any other Member wish to speak? I recognise the Honourable Member from constituency 20. Honourable Member, you have the floor.
Ms. Susan E. JacksonThank you, Mr. Speaker. 232 30 November 2018 Offici al Hansard Report Bermuda House of Assembly I just would like to get up and explain the reason why the OBA’s efforts in the previous years to get to this very beneficial point for the community [took some time] is that …
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. 232 30 November 2018 Offici al Hansard Report
Bermuda House of Assembly I just would like to get up and explain the reason why the OBA’s efforts in the previous years to get to this very beneficial point for the community [took some time] is that this is not about a towel bar. The point of this exercise, and there has been consider able thought given to it, I am sure, by both the OBA and the present Government, is based on the fact that there are a number of people out there who are ageing, who will be disabled, who are disabled and ageing. And there is a growing market for us to consider the fact that people may want to go into the business of creating residential facilities for those who are ageing or those with disabilities. And in order to do that, I would imagine that, in the best scenario, the Depar tment of Ageing and Disability Services should be consulting with entr epreneurs who are interested in renovating their homes for seniors in advance of making these actual renov ations. So, we are talking about a new business establishment, and we are talking about a major inves tment. So, in consultation with the Director of Ageing and Disability Services, I would imagine that consi deration and consultation around licensing of a res idence, senior residential care facility, would take place. Planning about how we are going to accomm odate seniors in a home. And then, of course, the collection of information around any kind of renovations that would need to be done and the purchasing of new equipment, which would mean that this is going to be a relatively major project for this entrepreneur. So, with the approval of the Director of Ageing and Disability Services, the entrepreneur can then make the purchases, get involved in the renovation of a home so that it is capable . . .
The SpeakerThe SpeakerMember, speak to the Chair. Speak to the Chair.
Ms. Susan E. JacksonA residential home could then be fully fitted without this entrepreneur having to go through the extra expense of the duties that would be incurred. And that, to me, is a reasonable scenario. I believe that it is going to be most helpful not only having the pre- consultation with …
A residential home could then be fully fitted without this entrepreneur having to go through the extra expense of the duties that would be incurred. And that, to me, is a reasonable scenario. I believe that it is going to be most helpful not only having the pre- consultation with the Ministry in advance of making renovations for the disabled and seniors, but also t he fact that they would have this tariff, or custom relief, on the importation of goods to renovate a facility for residential care homes. So, these are two very good things. And I appreciate it. Now, I have spent the last couple of years at Summerhaven. And I can appreciate the accommodation that needs to be made to make a comfortable and accessible dwelling for people who are living with di sabilities, as well as for seniors. And, yes, absolutely, we look at equipment. But there are also a number of const ruction adaptations that make that much better. And, certainly, any of that equipment that is needed certainly is greatly appreciated at a duty -free rate. So, yes, let us get down to the details of it all. So, if I want to purchase some equipment for my home because I have a senior who is living at home, then I would expect not to necessarily import equi pment. Let us say, it could be an adapted shower or maybe there are hand rails, maybe a bench. I am not necessarily going to order those things directly, w hich would be quite cumbersome, you know, the idea to have to go to the Director of Ageing and Disability Services. I mean, that is just not what a consumer does. But what I would hope is that, when I go to the likes of a Medical House or Lighthouse or any of the other retail facilities, that there would either be a balancing- out of the prices of these goods and services because of this tax relief, or that the price may even decrease slightly because, I would hope, that in some way, shape or form they may be able to pass on a little of that savings to the consumer. Because, actually, it is the owner of an establishment, a retail establishment like a Medical House that is going to be ordering in bulk for adaptive equipment for seniors and the disabled. And they are the ones who should be getting the tax relief on the importation of the goods. So, this is not necessarily about me, as Ms. Bermudian, living in Bermuda. But it is about those who are actually supporting this as an industry, whether it is as a res idential home or whether it is as a retail outlet that will be importing these goods and equipment for the dis abled, those living with disabilities, or seniors. So, that is the way I understand this legislation. And I fully support that.
Ms. Susan E. JacksonNow, if I want to adapt my home because maybe I have a mother and a father, or a grandmother and grandfather whom I would like to live in my home, again, it is not my inclination that the renovation that I may be making—which railings, ramps, maybe a lift …
Now, if I want to adapt my home because maybe I have a mother and a father, or a grandmother and grandfather whom I would like to live in my home, again, it is not my inclination that the renovation that I may be making—which railings, ramps, maybe a lift of some sort —I am probably not going to want to make as big a deal about this that I would have to go to the Director of Disability Services. And if that is the case, then I believe that the Ministry needs to at least be aware of the fact that there may be an increased volume of queries around this customs tax relief until people kind of get a better understanding of the levels of volume of importation of these goods that the Ministry is real ly getting at.
Bermuda House of Assembly But again, if I am looking for railings, a lift, some adaptive equipment in the house, I would expect that I would make that arrangement with the likes of a retailer such as a Medical House. So, that is my understanding of this legisl ation. I am fully supportive of it. I do notice, through my extended family at Summerhaven, that we are meeting and we are caring for more seniors who are living with disabilities. And anything that we can do to make their lives more accessible and to help them remain very much an active part of our community is certainly our obligation to the country. So, with that, I will take my seat. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThank you, Honourable Member. Anything further? We now recognise the Deputy Speaker. Deputy Speaker, you have the floor. Hon. Derrick V. Burgess, Sr.: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, first, I would like to thank the Premier for moving this Bill along when he was the Finance Minister. It was …
Thank you, Honourable Member. Anything further? We now recognise the Deputy Speaker. Deputy Speaker, you have the floor.
Hon. Derrick V. Burgess, Sr.: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, first, I would like to thank the Premier for moving this Bill along when he was the Finance Minister. It was earlier this year that we r eceived a lett er from a rest home that was bringing in some equipment, appliances, and they were reques ting a tax exemption. At that time, it could not be done. It was not within the law. But the Premier promised me that he would fix this. And the new Finance Mini ster, Mr. Dickinson, had brought it. So, I thank the Premier and our new Minister, the Honourable Mem-ber Curtis Dickinson, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, when we talk about seniors, there are many challenges there to try to accomm odate them because of the increasing number of that population, the fastest increasing segment of our population. You have heard the figures, in 10 years’ time what it will be. And, normally, when you get an i ncrease in numbers, you get increasing problems —and problems meaning health problem s, whether it be physical or mental, Mr. Speaker. So, what we need is more beds. And, certai nly, this would be an incentive for investors to come in, because there are some tax exemptions already on the books for when you are constructing seniors’ homes. This particular Bill is about supplies, whether it be [adult diapers] and the major appliances like refri gerators and that type of thing. That is what this par-ticular amendment is about, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, as you know, you probably know, in the res t homes today, a lot of the charges are passed on to families for like [adult diapers] and toiletries, because that $5,000 or whatever the rate may be does not cover these items. And, some families are struggling even to pay the fee that is charged monthly to stay there. And many rest homes are footing . . . well, their accounts are in arrears. So, they are strug-gling because the majority of our rest homes, the fees are within the $5,000 or $6,000 range, Mr. Speaker. But, Mr. Speaker, the disease or the si ckness, dementia, is prevalent today. And what we would encourage any investor to do is, if they are going to construct a rest home, that they consider putting in dementia units within that property to take care of folks. Because there have been courses that have been held in Bermuda to train people on how to deal with the dementia patient. So, that is a plus. And, Mr. Speaker, one of the biggest challenges is how we are going to pay for these services. In one country, I think it is in Germany, they have long-term care insurance. And they take out a fee off of your gross. And, depending on your age, they de-termine what particular charge it would be. I think we will come to a stage where we will have to do that because there have been some cases of abuse by families and those who have been in charge, or have the authority over seniors, of paying. And our seniors, a lot of them, are not treated the way they should be treated. And that is why we are talking about a charter, a long- term care charter for human ri ghts for the seniors and those who are disabled. And so, we are hoping that this will come before this House to di scuss, and the basis for any laws would be that charter, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, one thing before I sit down, that I think is definitely needed, because a lot of our seniors are on their own. Some are staying by themselves. And, there is nowhere for them to go during the day. We need a facility where our seniors can go during the day to just exercise their mind, their muscles and everything else. Because if you are sitting up at home by yourself, that certainly will, in my opinion, contri bute to how long you are going to stay with us. And it is good for those who have got a lot of grandchildren and a lot of children. You know someone is going to come around. But we have a lot of our seniors who do not have any children at all. So, it is difficult on them even preparing their meals, because Meals on Wheels –– and I pray for them and praise them for what they do– –but they provide one meal a day. You have churches providing meals throughout the country, and other organisations. But I would hope that we would ser iously consider some type of day facilities where seniors can go and exercise everything that they have, their minds, their bodies and ever ything else, and this would enhance their lives. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThank you, Honourable Member. Does any other Honourable Member wish to speak? We recognise the Honourable Member from constituency 4. Honourable Member Furbert, you have the floor.
Mrs. Tinee FurbertThank you, Mr. Speaker. 234 30 November 2018 Offici al Hansard Report Bermuda House of Assembly What everyone has shared already today has been very valuable. But I just wanted to speak on this topic, and also declare my interest. I am an occupational therapist by profession. And one of …
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. 234 30 November 2018 Offici al Hansard Report
Bermuda House of Assembly What everyone has shared already today has been very valuable. But I just wanted to speak on this topic, and also declare my interest. I am an occupational therapist by profession. And one of the things that I do—as do many occupational therapists who are out there—is go and do assessments in people’s homes to make their homes, or even residential facil ities, accessible. And so, it is a great assessment to have home assessments to make sure that, w hen people are able to return back to their home, they are safe. I would just like to also say that this Bill, I had nothing to do with this Bill. This is an awesome Bill that was actually laid out in our platform. And again, someone mentioned the foresight of our Premier to push forward with a Bill such as this. So, I want to thank him in advance for having the foresight for a Bill such as this. We do know that we would all like to age at home. We speak of seniors sometimes as though we will never get there ourselves. But ageing at home is very important. When you invest money into a home, a piece of the rock, and it is a lot of money, that is something that you hope that you would be able to stay in for the rest of your life. And so, ageing at home is very important for us as we age. There was also a survey done by Age Concern that also showed that over 80 per cent of our seniors, when the survey was done, owned their own homes. And so, having a progressive Bill such as this come to fruition is also nice. I would say that we are stepping it up into the 21 st century. I also wanted to add that, as we age and our income is not as steady as it used to be, when we consider all of the other costs that we have to factor in—health care, food, sometimes it is pr escription drugs, sometimes it is care staff and then the increas-ing costs of health care . . . And even our nursing homes and residential homes also experience those increased costs of having to run a home. The overhead as it has to do with electricity, as it has to do with paying staff, as it has to do with paying staff’s health care, these are all astronomical costs that make it very difficult to run a nursing home or residential home. And so, with any sort of relief such as this, it will be very helpful to nursing homes. I just wanted to also add that, as we age, some things happen to our bodies. And our vision de-clines. That is happening to me now.
[Inaudible interjections and laughter ]
The SpeakerThe SpeakerWhat was that, Honourable Member? I missed that. You are ageing already? [Laughter]
Mrs. Tinee FurbertAs we age, our vision does decline. Our bones are not as strong as they used to be. That is why they tell us we have to increase our calc ium level. And something else which happens, because our vi sion is declining, is our balance is also affected. And …
As we age, our vision does decline. Our bones are not as strong as they used to be. That is why they tell us we have to increase our calc ium level. And something else which happens, because our vi sion is declining, is our balance is also affected. And so, our ageing population has a huge, huge problem and concern with falling. And they could just turn really quickly, and then, you know, tumble to the ground. And that can cause a co- morbidity where they break their hip or break their shoulder or break their arm. And so, then we can link this to the hospital, and another problem that we have is being able to get our seniors out of the hospital. And sometimes, it is because they just cannot get in thei r house and they cannot move around their house. And with our architectural structuring of our homes, our Bermuda homes, we have tons of steps — steps to get in, steps within the house—where people are having to make decisions to move their bedroom or their living situation down into places like living rooms, where they are more accessible because that master bedroom that you built is up on that top level. And you can no longer get to that top level anymore. And so, this concession on this tax will help with one of the most impactful things that affects seniors with getting in their homes, which is stairs, right? So, hopefully, people will take advantage of such a tax, or no tax, such as this so that we can get them safely in their homes and able to move around their homes a lot more safely. So, it will, hopefully, include things such as ramps. One thing I do want to correct is the terminology of “ towel bar. ” A towel bar? We do not use towel bars. We use “grab bars.” If you try hanging on a towel bar, you wi ll fall [down]. Okay? So, it is a grab bar. They are made to standard. They are made to wit hhold certain degrees of force. And they are not just grab bars that you buy and hang up on the wall. They are supposed to be done to a specific measurement. So, there are things that have to be done correctly. And already, there are firms that are out there that are doing these sorts of things. There are architectural firms that actually are specific in accessible planning and design. So, these companies are already out there, and they exist. So it is not a new industry that we would have to create. These companies are out there, and they do exist, and they can help our seniors and our disabled in the community. I did want to speak to something that MP Wayne [Furbert ] did speak about in regard to the D irector of the Department of Ageing and Disability Services certifying these goods. I remember we had passed some legislation before where the Chief Medical Officer was responsible for signing off or certifying vehicles, disabled vehicles. And we actually removed that out of the Chief Medical Officer’s hands to make the process a little bit more seamless, because it be-came too tedious for them to manage. And I am just hoping that, in the hands of the Director of Ageing and Disability Services, the process does not become too
Bermuda House of Assembly difficult and tedious for our seniors and disabled to have to have access to these goods. So, I just wanted to share that this is a pr ogressive Bill. The Ageing and Disability Services are already ingrained in the process of regulation of our nursing homes and residential homes. So, they are pretty familiar with the equipment that would be needed around mobility, safety and comfort. But, again, I still think that requiring the Director of Ageing and Disability Services to certify and sign off on doc uments would actually cause a delay in the actual pr ocessing of access to goods. So, I just want to say that this, again, is a pr ogressive Bill. And, interestingly enough, in some juri sdictions, insurance companies actually cover some of the costs of adaptable equipment in making seniors’ homes and the homes of persons with disabilities a little accessible. So, I would actually like to see insurance companies stepping up to the plate, as well, in assisting wi th our seniors and persons with disabilities in providing some type of coverage for things such as ramps and grab bars, because I know that they are not providing coverage for those things right now. So, without further ado, thank you, Mr. Speaker. The S peaker: Thank you, Honourable Member. Does any other Honourable Member wish to speak? I recognise the Honourable Member from constituency 21. Honourable Member, you have the floor.
Mr. Rolfe CommissiongThank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, this is a welcomed Bill that we have before us, Customs Tariff Amendment (No. 3) Act 2018. But let us not delude ourselves. This is not enough. We have facing us a tsunami, a demographic tsunami that is going to overwhelm Bermuda unless we …
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, this is a welcomed Bill that we have before us, Customs Tariff Amendment (No. 3) Act 2018. But let us not delude ourselves. This is not enough. We have facing us a tsunami, a demographic tsunami that is going to overwhelm Bermuda unless we step up the pace. And this is a challenge to all of us here to step up the pace of meaningful reform to ensure that, as the baby boomers begin to go into r etirement, we are going to have the necessary r esources to meet their needs. And I am telling you that the clock is ticking. We had one of the Ministers not too long ago, and forgive me for not remembering which one, who indicated that in the next five years you are going to have over 500 civil servants who are going to age out in terms of employment —500. Those are people right now between the ages of 58, 59, 60, all the way to 63 or 64. Five hundred! And I am not going to speak too long here, Mr. Speaker. But I just want to say this, as well, that we have got to understand that there are many within the baby boomer population who are not prepared for retirement. They are not going to be pr epared for retirement and for those ailments that ac-company one’s ageing. We know, for example, talking about my generation, that there will be thousands, particularly black Bermudians, who, on average, because of the instit ution of racism and other impediments within our soci ety, as they were in their peak earning years, are not going to have the levels of income and multi - generational wealth [of some Bermudians] to begin to help insulate them f rom these impacts. Now, I am not saying that this is going to be the worst -case scenario only for black Bermudians, as some would probably want to jump up and say. But they will be disproportionately represented. So, my point is this: The dependency rat ios are going to go through the roof, putting an inordinate burden on young people. I heard the Deputy Speaker speak about the fact that we have a number of persons who may have only two or three children. I think he said something like that. But, the real ity is, if you look at the demographics, there are a growing minor ity with no children, heading towards retirement. Look at the fertility rates over the last 30– 40 years. And, moreover, there is a larger percentage of persons who will only have one child, [and this child] will probably have to meet the demands of ageing parents, both mother and father. So, again, let us not be too complacent here. We are just at the beginning of this wave to begin to legislate the sort of reforms that are going to be needed to meet this pending challenge, demographically. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThank you, Honourable Member. Does any other Member wish to speak? No other Member? Minister, would you like to respond? Hon. Curtis L. Dickinson: Mr. Speaker, there were a couple of questions that I would like to respond to. In the first instance, from the Honourable Member from constituency 25 …
Thank you, Honourable Member. Does any other Member wish to speak? No other Member? Minister, would you like to respond?
Hon. Curtis L. Dickinson: Mr. Speaker, there were a couple of questions that I would like to respond to. In the first instance, from the Honourable Member from constituency 25 [sic], the Minister will take recommendations from customs officers and technical offi cers in the Ministry of Finance. Typically, as has been done in the past, vendors would ask for relief from customs and the Ministry of Finance. So, we will con-sider the input from technical folks and customs off icials in making a decision and ensuring that the dec ision that is made is consi stent with policy. There was a question with respect to, I guess, vendors who provide or sell equipment or the goods or fixtures or furnishings. The general provision of the Fifth Schedule allows for retroactive authorisation of the duty relief for indivi duals who purchase things. And so, I would suspect that, inasmuch as people purchase goods from vendors, they can apply for the relief once they have made their purchase. I would also suggest that, working with the Ageing and Disability Services, perhaps a form be provided to the vendor, which they could provide to the person purchasing the goods, with a stamp of 236 30 November 2018 Offici al Hansard Report
Bermuda House of Assembly some sort, that can then be submitted for refund of the duty that was levied on the goods being purchased.
[Crosstalk ]
Hon. Curtis L. Dickinso n: I was just getting some clarification on the question from the Honourable Member from constituency 19. And I think I just covered that ground just now. So, the duty will apply to commercial vendors, and the relief will be provided once the goods have been sold onwards to consumers. There is 12 months retroactivity. I think I have addressed the questions that were asked, Mr. Speaker. And with that being said, I move that the Bill be committed.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThank you, Minister. Deputy. House in Commi ttee at 12:07 pm [Hon. Derrick V. Burgess, Sr., Chairman] COMMITTEE ON BILL CUSTOMS TARIFF AMENDMENT (NO. 3) ACT 2018
The ChairmanChairmanHonourable Members, we are now in Committee of the whole [House] for further consider ation of the Bill entitled the Customs Tariff Amendment (No. 3) Act 2018 . Minister, you have the floor. Hon. Curtis L. Dickinson: Mr. Chairman, this Bill seeks to amend the Customs Tariff Act 1970, the …
The ChairmanChairmanContinue. Hon. Curtis L. Dickinson: Clause 2 amends CPC 4229 in the Fifth Schedule to the principal Act (goods for local commercial manufacturing) to provide that the discounted duty rate of 5 per cent will not apply to all goods, but to goods of such description or quantity as may …
Continue.
Hon. Curtis L. Dickinson: Clause 2 amends CPC 4229 in the Fifth Schedule to the principal Act (goods for local commercial manufacturing) to provide that the discounted duty rate of 5 per cent will not apply to all goods, but to goods of such description or quantity as may be approved by the Minister in the relevant approved business notice made under the CPC in accordance with policy guidelines issued and published by the Minister.
The ChairmanChairmanYou may continue, sir. Hon. Curtis L. Dickinson: Clause 3.
The ChairmanChairmanYes. We are going to move all clauses. It is very short. Hon. Curtis L. Dickinson: Clause 3 amends the Fifth Schedule to the principal Act by inserting CPC 4232. Originally, it was proposed to provide duty exemption in relation to goods for seniors only. However, after further consideration, it …
Yes. We are going to move all clauses. It is very short. Hon. Curtis L. Dickinson: Clause 3 amends the Fifth Schedule to the principal Act by inserting CPC 4232. Originally, it was proposed to provide duty exemption in relation to goods for seniors only. However, after further consideration, it is proposed to allow the benefit of this relief to extend to disabled persons, as well. Therefore, I propose the following amendment to CPC, which has been handed out to Members. I move that the Bill be amended—
The ChairmanChairmanOkay. Being that we have got an amendment on the third clause, let us just do clauses 1 and 2 first. Would any Member want to speak to clauses 1 and 2? The Chair recognises the Honourable Member Pat Gordon- Pamplin. Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. …
Okay. Being that we have got an amendment on the third clause, let us just do clauses 1 and 2 first. Would any Member want to speak to clauses 1 and 2? The Chair recognises the Honourable Member Pat Gordon- Pamplin. Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Good morning. Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Minister could just clarify in clause 2, when it says that “a quantity as may be approved by the Minister in the relevant approved business notice made under this CPC . . .,” relief referred to in the Fifth Schedule, how is that determination going to be made? I think that there needs to be some kind of parameters established. It does say that, in accordance with the policy guidelines i ssued by the Minister and published in such a manner as he sees fit. You may have, as the Honourable Health Mi nister indicated earlier, somebody who is going to be exempt from their sugar tax because they are a manufacturer of baked goods and the like. And the relevant goods that need to be imported will differ according to various agencies. So, there has got to be some kind of cap with parameters. And I am just curious —
The ChairmanChairmanWell, why do you not let him answer the question? Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Right. Okay. And the second question, he can answer at the same time, is, How is it going to be managed to ensure that the exemptions are not being taken advantage of by ancillary involvement …
The ChairmanChairmanAny further speakers? Minister, you may respond. Hon. Curtis L. Dickinson: In the first instance, the amendment presented in clause 2 is an attempt to narrow the scope of goods that would actually qualify. I think Members will see that, in the instance of the existing legislation, pretty much anything …
Any further speakers? Minister, you may respond.
Hon. Curtis L. Dickinson: In the first instance, the amendment presented in clause 2 is an attempt to narrow the scope of goods that would actually qualify. I think Members will see that, in the instance of the existing legislation, pretty much anything could apply. Anyone could apply for relief. The intention of the amendment is to kind of close that loophole, to give
Bermuda House of Assembly the Minister some discretion around which goods can and cannot apply for the relief. I think it would be a bit of a fruitless exercise for me to try to articulate everything that would apply or would be subject to relief. The purpose of this amendment is to grant the Minister some discretion to make calls with respect to goods which qualify for r elief and those which do not. I am sorry, Member. I missed the second part of your question.
The ChairmanChairmanThe Chair recognises the Honourable Pat Gordon- Pamplin. Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Thank you. The second part of my question was, How is this going to be managed? And my question really would be, let us say, for the sake of argument, a gr ocery store imports sugar. And …
The Chair recognises the Honourable Pat Gordon- Pamplin.
Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Thank you. The second part of my question was, How is this going to be managed? And my question really would be, let us say, for the sake of argument, a gr ocery store imports sugar. And there is going to be a per cent exemption, or an exemption on sugar for the bakery. How is this going to be managed so that the grocery store is not claiming exemption for all sugar that they bring in, for the manufacturer as well as for everybody else? Or, will the manufacturer then be able to go to the grocery store for some kind of reimbursement? Or will the grocery store have to go to Customs for some kind of reimbursement? Or are we determining from the outset that, when the importation is made, the exemption is provided, and this supply of inventory is set aside specifically? I am just curious about the practical applic ations of the management.
The ChairmanChairmanMinister. Hon. Curtis L. Dickinson: Mr. Chairman, individuals will have the option to apply for relief. Their applic ations will be considered, and a decision will be made. It is as simple as that.
Ms. Gordon- Pamplin.
Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -PamplinThank you, Mr. Chairman. Just for clarity. So, the individuals would be able to go back to the Ministry to ask for the r eimbursement? If they purchased, obviously, from a grocery store, who has already imported and who has already paid the duty, will then the individual goes back …
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just for clarity. So, the individuals would be able to go back to the Ministry to ask for the r eimbursement? If they purchased, obviously, from a grocery store, who has already imported and who has already paid the duty, will then the individual goes back to the Ministry? Or will the individual go back to the importer, who will then go back to the M inistry? I am just wondering how we deal with this on a practical basis.
Hon. Curtis L. Dickinson: Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the question. I believe the way that it should work is that the individual would pay the cost at the store, where they are acquir ing the sugar. And then, the i ndividual would apply for the relief. In my own mind, grocery stores or suppliers should not be in the business, [or have] the admini strative burden, of applying for duty relief for their customers. The customer should apply for it. And so, the person would pay what they need to pay to the di stributor. And then, the customer would then go and seek the relief.
The ChairmanChairmanAny further speakers? The Chair recognises the Honourable Susan Jackson. You have the floor, Member.
Ms. Susan E. JacksonThank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, I am still working through this clause 2, and the CPC 4229. So, it seems as though this could apply to absolutely anything, that the Minister can consider it as long as it is being brought in for manufacturing of goods. So, I mean, Goslings, …
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, I am still working through this clause 2, and the CPC 4229. So, it seems as though this could apply to absolutely anything, that the Minister can consider it as long as it is being brought in for manufacturing of goods. So, I mean, Goslings, anybody who is manufacturing stuff on the Island. Can you just explain to me how this would not be a loophole?
The ChairmanChairmanMinister. Hon. Curtis L. Dickinson: The existing legislation allows for any and all goods. The proposed amendment closes that loophole to provide the Minister with some discretion on what would qualify for relief. So, in effect, we are closing the loophole. There is [now] some discretion that the Minister did …
The ChairmanChairmanAny further speakers? The Chair recognises the Honourable Pat Pamplin . . . Pat Gordon- Pamplin. Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: That is fine, Mr. Chairman.
The ChairmanChairmanYou answer to both. Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Yes, I answer to even different ones. [Laughter] Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: But I will not say what. [Laughter] Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Sweetheart, Darling, all those kinds of things. [Laughter] 238 30 November 2018 Offici al Hansard Report …
You answer to both.
Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Yes, I answer to even different ones. [Laughter]
Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: But I will not say what. [Laughter]
Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Sweetheart, Darling, all those kinds of things.
[Laughter]
238 30 November 2018 Offici al Hansard Report
Bermuda House of Assembly Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Thank y ou, Mr. Chairman. I do not wish necessarily to be pedantic about this. But just in kind of thinking this through a little bit more and having a brief conversation with one of my colleagues that many manufacturers actually purchase, because they are purchasing in bulk, it is not likely to come through a grocery store. It is likely to come through a wholesaler. And that wholesaler —is there any possibility, especially if you are dealing with a small business, while the amount may be relatively insignificant i n total to the wholesaler, to the business owner it could effectively make or break their business if they are paying this extra little bit every single time. And the question begs as to whether there is a manner in which the wholesaler can assist. Becaus e if you are going to be a one- man- band, you are home, you are baking, you are requiring these exemptions. And now you have got to run down to Customs or to the Ministry to get your clearance to be able to get your rebate of the customs duty. If you are doing that, then, especially for small businesses, you are not going to be able to be manu-facturing or producing the goods during that period of time. So, you know, we do not want an administrative burden to encumber a manufacturer from maximum and optimum productivity because of having to run back and forth to the Ministry. So, I am just wondering if there is a way that, within the policy, it can be built in that the wholesaler can, as the person comes to purchase, that wholesaler can perhaps fill in a for m at the time so that he has verified that this person has made the purchase. And the purchaser can then either have that document with them, which he can then forward up to the Mini stry . . . just to try to make life a little bit easier. I am just trying to not encumber a sole practitioner in manufacturing to be unduly burdened through the process of trying to get their money back.
The ChairmanChairmanMinister, do you want to respond? Hon. Michael H. Dunkley: Mr. Chairman.
The ChairmanChairmanOh, I’m sorry. The Chair recognises the Honourable Member Michael Dunkley. Hon. Michael H. Dunkley: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just to support my honourable colleague, then declare my interest. In my business, I am processor and wholesaler. But to the Minister, it would make pr udent, good sense to take …
Oh, I’m sorry. The Chair recognises the Honourable Member Michael Dunkley.
Hon. Michael H. Dunkley: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just to support my honourable colleague, then declare my interest. In my business, I am processor and wholesaler. But to the Minister, it would make pr udent, good sense to take it on board, because as my hon-ourable colleague has said, if someone buys from a retailer, and then has to go through the extra work of applying for that rebate or that discount back, if you look at it, for some items it might be a reasonable $25 or $30 or $40. And so, for the time and the cost for that individual’s small business to [get] that rebate, they might get caught up in the busyness of their day, and they are just going to say, You know what? It is $25. I would like to have the $25, but it is going to cost me more in my time to actually do that. I think if we can look at streamlining the sy stem in a certain way, we can make it work all around. And the benefits that Government has so wisely seen to give the discount to could actually go right back to the small business, and then to the consumer. And I think it would be a much more efficient and effective system.
The ChairmanChairmanWell, let us remember now. This is concerning seniors’ rest homes.
Some Hon. Members Some Hon. MembersNo, no, no, no, no, no, no. [Inaudible interjections]
The ChairmanChairmanAt clause 2? [Inaudible interjections ]
The ChairmanChairmanOkay. Minister, do you want to respond? Hon. Curtis L. Dickinson: Mr. Chairman, I think I have mentioned this earlier with respect to the seniors, and I think that the same concept applies to clause 2, which is, if you go to a wholesaler and you make a purchase, and …
Okay. Minister, do you want to respond? Hon. Curtis L. Dickinson: Mr. Chairman, I think I have mentioned this earlier with respect to the seniors, and I think that the same concept applies to clause 2, which is, if you go to a wholesaler and you make a purchase, and you believe that you qualify for relief, the wholesaler should help in the administrative burden in terms of providing proof of purchase. And then the person, the customer who is buying from the wholesaler, will then present that proof of purchase to be refunded the duty relief, to get the duty relief back. Hopefully, that clarifies.
The ChairmanChairmanAny further speakers? The Chai r recognises the Honourable Member Pat Gordon- Pamplin. Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Thanks, Mr. Chairman. And when we were in the debate of the whole, the Minister indicated that there would be a retroactive period for the application of rebates for 12 months. And …
Any further speakers? The Chai r recognises the Honourable Member Pat Gordon- Pamplin.
Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Thanks, Mr. Chairman. And when we were in the debate of the whole, the Minister indicated that there would be a retroactive period for the application of rebates for 12 months. And I am just wondering whether there is likely to be any clawback for this “all goods” versus “specific goods” versus “named goods.” In other words, if somebody has received from the time that the legisl ation came into being a rebate, will we j ust let that slide? You will not be going back after them and say-ing that, Really, it should be all goods. And that it is not the all goods that is going to be retroactive? It is just going to be the amount of the money that is going to be retroactive? I just wanted to make sure so that nobody who has been purchasing
Bermuda House of Assembly goods that are now outside of what the Minister will approve, that they are not going to be asked to pay more, and that whatever they have paid, that they effectively will have their 12 months retroactivity?
The ChairmanChairmanAny further speakers? The Chair recognises the Minister, Mr. Dicki nson. Hon. Curtis L. Dickinson: My understanding is that the retroactivity will apply to the amendment and not to the existing position in legislation. So, t he amended Bill provides for a relief, under clause 2, the Minister, with discretion. …
Any further speakers? The Chair recognises the Minister, Mr. Dicki nson.
Hon. Curtis L. Dickinson: My understanding is that the retroactivity will apply to the amendment and not to the existing position in legislation. So, t he amended Bill provides for a relief, under clause 2, the Minister, with discretion. And clause 3 provides with respect to items for seniors and disabled. I am just taking a general point. But the 12- month retroactivity will apply to these amendments in t his Bill as opposed to all goods.
The ChairmanChairmanAny further speakers? The Chair recognises the Honourable Member Susan Jackson.
Ms. Susan E. JacksonThank you, Mr. Chairman. Just to kind of make a distinction in clause 2. So, this is not just about the goods for seniors and disability housing? This is across the board, CPC 4229? So, how are you planning on notifying all of the people who import goods that would …
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just to kind of make a distinction in clause 2. So, this is not just about the goods for seniors and disability housing? This is across the board, CPC 4229? So, how are you planning on notifying all of the people who import goods that would have to now go through this new process? Because we are talking about everything—importation of cement and sand if it is to build blocks.
[Inaudible interjections]
Ms. Susan E. JacksonThis is anything that we are manufacturing in Bermuda. So, if you are manufacturing bricks and you want to import the cement to manufacture bricks, then you now have to go through this more stringent approval and rebate process. So, I am just wondering, how are we going to notify …
This is anything that we are manufacturing in Bermuda. So, if you are manufacturing bricks and you want to import the cement to manufacture bricks, then you now have to go through this more stringent approval and rebate process. So, I am just wondering, how are we going to notify people? Because right now it might appear that it is just for importation of goods for seniors. But this sounds to me like it is every thing from sugar to sand to . . . anything, if it is going to be manufactured here.
The ChairmanChairmanMinister. Hon. Curtis L. Dickinson: Clause 2, under the current law, provides for all goods. And the amendment is being put in place to close that loophole to allow the Minister to have discretion around what qualifies. I do not see it as any additional burden on someone. They would …
Minister.
Hon. Curtis L. Dickinson: Clause 2, under the current law, provides for all goods. And the amendment is being put in place to close that loophole to allow the Minister to have discretion around what qualifies. I do not see it as any additional burden on someone. They would apply. And, inasmuch as the Minister, in the exercise of his discretion, believes that it is appropr iate for them to get the rel ief, relief will be granted. Otherwise, they will not get it. Under current legislation, they can apply. And whatever happens , happens. So, it is fairly broad. And what we are doing is we are narrowing the scope of what will apply by giving the Minister discretion to choose, make a decision around, which goods will qualify for relief. So, I do not see any difference in the process other than now, the amendment, should it pass, gives the Minister the discretion to approve which goods [do qualify] and which ones do not.
The ChairmanChairmanAny further speakers? The Chair recognises the Honourable Member Pat Gordon- Pamplin. Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just if the Minister could clarify that, as these exemptions, or preferential rates, are being appended, will the application be required for every purchase every time? So, in other …
Any further speakers? The Chair recognises the Honourable Member Pat Gordon- Pamplin.
Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Just if the Minister could clarify that, as these exemptions, or preferential rates, are being appended, will the application be required for every purchase every time? So, in other words, if you do purchases this week . . . or will it make sense to perhaps aggr egate and make returns as you do in a tax return over a quarter? Or, you know, would it be every exemption every time?
The ChairmanChairmanMinister, would you like to respond to that? Hon. Curtis L. Dickinson: I appreciate the questions, but I want to be careful not to get into the specifics of how people are going to behave themselves with r espect to kind of making an application for relief. T oday, they …
Minister, would you like to respond to that?
Hon. Curtis L. Dickinson: I appreciate the questions, but I want to be careful not to get into the specifics of how people are going to behave themselves with r espect to kind of making an application for relief. T oday, they apply. The applications are considered, and a decision is rendered. The same process would happen under the amended Act. The only difference being that the Minister will now have the ability, the di scretion, to choose which goods qualify for relief and which ones do not.
The ChairmanChairmanAnd the Chair recognises the Honourable Member Michael Dunkley. Hon. Michael H. Dunkley: You are pretty good. You have got your eyes turning to the left .
The ChairmanChairmanWell, I have got four eyes. [Laughter] Hon. Michael H. Dunkley: I will leave that comment alone. I might get myself in trouble, Mr. Chairman. [Laughter] Hon. Michael H. Dunkley: To the Honourable Mini ster, I appreciate the update. So, in regard to the Minister’s discretion, I have—and I am …
Well, I have got four eyes.
[Laughter]
Hon. Michael H. Dunkley: I will leave that comment alone. I might get myself in trouble, Mr. Chairman.
[Laughter]
Hon. Michael H. Dunkley: To the Honourable Mini ster, I appreciate the update. So, in regard to the Minister’s discretion, I have—and I am sure other Members have as well, I would hope the Ministry of Finance has —received a number of concerns from health stores that protein powder is now taxed because of the sugar tax. Will 240 30 November 2018 Offici al Hansard Report
Bermuda House of Assembly consider ation be given to allow protein powder to fall into that category? Protein powder, for those who do not know, Mr. Chairman, and you are very fit . . . Protein powder is something that people, who want to have a balanced diet and stay fit, use on a regular basis. It might be in a smoothie or breakfast concoction they make. But now it appears to be taxed, and that is causing quite a burden on people who are trying to be healthy.
Hon. Curtis L. Dickinson: Mr. Chairman, I notice that he is flattering you when he should be flattering me, as it is I who has the discretion. [Laughter]
Hon. Michael H. Dunkley: Point of order. I did not want to seem like I was coming on too strong to the Minister. And I always speak to the Chair.
The ChairmanChairmanWell, you can get the proteins without sugar. [Inaudible interjections]
The ChairmanChairmanNo, you can get it without sugar. Hon. Curtis L. Dickinson: Mr. Chairman, we will evaluate requests, and, under recommendations of the Customs officials and technical officers, we wi ll make a decision around whether protein powders, should they be submitted for seeking relief, qualify or not.
The ChairmanChairmanAny further speakers? The Chair recognises the Honourable Member Susan Jackson.
Ms. Susan E. JacksonYes. So, I still am tryin g to work out this notification. Because the more I think about it, the more I even think about the small bus iness. Now, what if you are manufacturing oil, aroma therapy oils? You are trying to make a business here in Bermuda. And, …
Yes. So, I still am tryin g to work out this notification. Because the more I think about it, the more I even think about the small bus iness. Now, what if you are manufacturing oil, aroma therapy oils? You are trying to make a business here in Bermuda. And, you know, you have been going down to Customs and getting your oils. And, like my Member said earlier, you might be saving $25– $30. And, for the regular person, you might not think two things about it. But the point is that, all of a sudden, that individual is going to go down t o Customs, and they are going to be clearing their essential oils, right? And all of a sudden, there is going to be an additional $25 to $30 added on to their duty. So, they are going to look at it and be really concerned about the fact that this is adding to the price of their end goods and they have no idea on how to make application to get that rebate. So, again, my question is —and I understand that the Minister will set out the policies. But, how are we going to make sure that everybody understands what this is? Because some people’s costs of impor ting goods are going to go up. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The ChairmanChairmanMinister. Hon. Curtis L. Dickinson: Mr. Chairman, today, a vendor goes to Customs to get duty relief, fills out a form and submits the f orm for approval for duty relief. Should this amendment pass, they go tomorrow. They will go through the exact same process, except that the Minister …
The ChairmanChairmanThank you. Any further speakers? The Chair recognises the Honourable Member Wayne Scott [sic] — Hon. Wayne L. Furbert: Furbert.
Some Hon. Members Some Hon. MembersFurbert. [Laughter]
The ChairmanChairmanWayne Furbert from the Holy Land at Hamilton Parish. [Inaudible interjections]
The ChairmanChairmanYes, it is the Holy Land. Yes, it is. [Inaudible interjections and laughter ] Hon. Wayne L. Furbert: Mr. Chairman, the Honour able Member keeps on talking about seamen and now she is talking about this oil. But it is not in the Bill. It has nothing to do with …
Yes, it is the Holy Land. Yes, it is.
[Inaudible interjections and laughter ]
Hon. Wayne L. Furbert: Mr. Chairman, the Honour able Member keeps on talking about seamen and now she is talking about this oil. But it is not in the Bill. It has nothing to do with t his Bill at all. No, it has nothing to do with the Bill. It has nothing to do with this Bill. It has to do with sugar, clause 2, and the rest has to do with sen-iors and goods. It has nothing to do with cement. It has nothing to do with any oils. If a per son manufactures a product in Berm uda, if anybody manufactures a product —
Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Point of order, Mr. Chairman.
The ChairmanChairmanPoint of order? We are in Committee. POINT OF ORDER [Misleading] Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Yes, but the Honourable Member is misleading. Because he says that clause 2 relates only to sugar. And it does not, because “qualifying goods” is more than just sugar. Bermuda House of Assembly The …
Point of order? We are in Committee.
POINT OF ORDER [Misleading]
Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Yes, but the Honourable Member is misleading. Because he says that clause 2 relates only to sugar. And it does not, because “qualifying goods” is more than just sugar.
Bermuda House of Assembly The Chairman: You can respond to it when he finis hes. We are in Committee.
Hon. Wayne L. Furbert: Mr. Chairman, I have no problem with this Honourable Member if she wants to speak to the civil servant after, but this has only to do with sugar. I am not going into the full weight of it . But the person who manufactures goods in Bermuda right now, I know people who make tents, I know people who make certain other products, they can apply to Customs for duty relief for those type of products, right up front. They do not have to go back and forth on those types of items. So, this Bill has nothing t o do with oils and cement.
The ChairmanChairmanAny further speakers? The Chair recognises the Honourable Member Ms. Atherden. You have the floor. Hon. Jeanne J. Atherden: Sorry. Mr. Chairman, through you to the Minister: I was not going to get up. But I real ised that there seems to be some uncertai nty. And I totally get …
Any further speakers? The Chair recognises the Honourable Member Ms. Atherden. You have the floor.
Hon. Jeanne J. Atherden: Sorry. Mr. Chairman, through you to the Minister: I was not going to get up. But I real ised that there seems to be some uncertai nty. And I totally get what you say that, if a person has been going down and filling a form out, and getting duty relief, that they will continue to do that. I think the only thing on this side that we are trying to clarify is that the mere fact that you decided you need to tighten this up means that there must be some form of manufacturing out there that you believe that—they might have gotten it before, but they should not get it now. So, are you prepared to indi cate to this House whether there are types of manufacturing, because I realise it is manufacturing—types of manufacturing out there that you believe perhaps will not be eligible any longer? Because if that is the case, I am presuming that you are going to put out a notice so that everybody who might be affected by this would know.
The ChairmanChairmanQuestion? Question? Hon. Jeanne J. Atherden: So, my question is, Are you able to indicate which types of manufacturing, based on this amendment, will no longer be eligible because you believe that it was too wide and you are making it narrower?
The ChairmanChairmanMinister, it is that time. [Deputy] Premier. Hon. Walter H. Roban: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I do move that we adjourn until two o’clock.
The ChairmanChairmanThe House will adjourn to two o’clock. [Gavel] Proceedings suspended at 12:32 pm Proceedings resumed at 2:02 pm [Hon. Derrick V. Burgess, Sr., Chairman] COMMITTEE ON BILL CUSTOMS TARIFF AMENDMENT (NO. 3) ACT 2018 [Continuation of Committee thereon]
The ChairmanChairmanGood afternoon, we are resuming after lunch and continuing the Bill, the Customs Tariff Amendment (No. 3) Act 2018 , debating clauses 1 and 2. Are ther e any further speakers? The Chair recognises the Honourable Minister Curtis Dickinson. Hon. Curtis L. Dickinson: Mr. Chairman, I think before we broke …
Good afternoon, we are resuming after lunch and continuing the Bill, the Customs Tariff Amendment (No. 3) Act 2018 , debating clauses 1 and 2. Are ther e any further speakers? The Chair recognises the Honourable Minister Curtis Dickinson.
Hon. Curtis L. Dickinson: Mr. Chairman, I think before we broke for lunch there was a question about whether I could give detail around how I would determine what was and was not included. And the answer to that is no. We will take each situation as it comes, assess it accordingly, and make a determination. I think also, just for the sake of clarity, I should note the following: that in making the amendment (which we have not discussed yet) in clause 3, for the benefit of seniors and disabled persons, we also took a look at the Act to see if there were ways to tighten it up, generally speaking, and noticed that clause 2 was fairly broad and open ended. And in the spiri t of efficiency, and being mindful of the public purse, I took the decision to tighten clause 2 up to make sure that it would not be subject to abuse and that the Minister would have some discretion as to what sort of relief was granted to whom.
The Chair man: Any further speakers? The Chair recognises the Honourable Member Susan Jackson. Ms. Jackson, you have the floor.
Ms. Susan E. JacksonThank you, Mr. Chairman. So regarding clause 2 then, were there abuses prior to this? Hon. Curtis L. Dickinson: Not that I am aware of. But [after] a read of the clause when evaluating in the context of the entirety of the Act, the decision was taken that it was …
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. So regarding clause 2 then, were there abuses prior to this? Hon. Curtis L. Dickinson: Not that I am aware of. But [after] a read of the clause when evaluating in the context of the entirety of the Act, the decision was taken that it was fairly broad and there probably was scope to tighten it up. So this amendment gives the Minister some di scretion around how to grant relief.
The ChairmanChairmanAny further speakers? Minister, do you want to move clauses 1 and 2? 242 30 November 2018 Offici al Hansard Report B ermuda House of Assembly Hon. Curtis L. Dickinson: Yes, please, Mr. Chai rman.
The ChairmanChairmanJust move clauses 1 and 2 to be approved. Hon. Curtis L. Dickins on: I move that clauses 1 and 2 stand as part of the Bill.
The ChairmanChairmanNo, you need to move that clauses 1 and 2 be approved. Hon. Curtis L. Dickinson: Okay. Sorry, this is my first time doing this.
The ChairmanChairmanThat is fine, that is fine. Hon. Curtis L. Dickinson: I move that clauses 1 and 2 be approved.
The ChairmanChairmanIt has been moved that clauses 1 and 2 be approved. Are there any objections to that? There appear to be none. Clauses 1 and 2 are approved. [ Motion carried: Clauses 1 and 2 passed.]
The ChairmanChairmanDo you want to go to clause 3, Mini ster? Hon. Curtis L. Dickinson: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Clause 3 amends the Fifth Schedule to the principal A ct by inserting CPC 4232. Originally, it was proposed to provide duty exemption in relation to goods for seniors only . Howe …
Do you want to go to clause 3, Mini ster? Hon. Curtis L. Dickinson: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Clause 3 amends the Fifth Schedule to the principal A ct by inserting CPC 4232. Originally, it was proposed to provide duty exemption in relation to goods for seniors only . Howe ver, after further consideration, it is proposed to allow the benefit of this relief to extend to disabled persons as well. Therefore, I propose the following amendment to CPC 4232, which has been handed out to Members.
The ChairmanChairmanContinue. You are moving the amendment, right? Hon. Curtis L. Dickinson: Yes.
The ChairmanChairmanContinue, Minister. AMENDMENT TO CLAUSE 3 Hon. Curtis L. Dickinson: So I move that clause 3 be approved.
The ChairmanChairmanAny further speakers to the amendment?
Ms. Susan E. JacksonYes, Mr. Chairman. I am just wondering if under the description there would be consideration to renaming “Goods for seniors’ hous-ing” to ‘Goods for seniors and disability housing . . . or disabled housing.’ But just to be able to work that into the title, the description . . . …
The ChairmanChairmanWell, it should be clear. I am not clear what you are asking, because I see “disabled persons” in [clause 3, point] 1 of the Bill, in the descri ptions.
Ms. Susan E. JacksonRight. So, it is just the title of it. So right now the title, the description, is “Goods for seniors’ housing” —
Ms. Susan E. Jackson—and I was just wondering if maybe we could change that to include the word around disabilities . . . “Goods for seniors’ housing and—
The ChairmanChairmanWell, it is the body of it. If you look at [point] 1, you will see “housing a . . . disabled person.” It is there. I understand what you are saying, but —
Ms. Susan E. Jackson‘Goods for seniors and dis ability housing,’ or something like that. Hon. Curtis L. Dickinson: Mr. Chairma n, I have no objection to making that clarification.
The ChairmanChairmanOkay. Any further speakers on this amendment? The Chair recognises the Honourable Pat Gordon- Pamplin. You have the floor, Ms. [Gordon- ]Pamplin. Hon. Patricia J. Gordon- Pamplin: Thank y ou, Mr. Chairman, if you will give me just one- half a second to get my old Bill where I have …
Okay. Any further speakers on this amendment? The Chair recognises the Honourable Pat Gordon- Pamplin. You have the floor, Ms. [Gordon- ]Pamplin. Hon. Patricia J. Gordon- Pamplin: Thank y ou, Mr. Chairman, if you will give me just one- half a second to get my old Bill where I have my notes scribbled. U nder the “End- Use Conditions/Restrictions” as listed, because this is now including residential care home and seniors, the question . . . my note that I had was, why keep “residential care homes” as the end-use restriction? Because the end- use is going to be for disabled, it is going to be for seniors. So rather than include residential care home, seniors’ home . . . because we are dealing with disabled as well as persons with disabilities, as well as seniors . . . any sort of residential care home, can we not leave it with [point] 1 saying that ‘Goods must be incorporated in or
Bermuda House of Assembly installed on residential care home premises, or any other premises housing a senior or a disabled person’? Oh, dear, let me just —
The ChairmanChairmanCatch your breath. Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Yes, I am sorry. I do apologise for that. [Inaudible interjection] Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: And then . . . so do w e need further down the description of . . . res idential care home, do we need to …
Catch your breath.
Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Yes, I am sorry. I do apologise for that. [Inaudible interjection]
Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: And then . . . so do w e need further down the description of . . . res idential care home, do we need to specify it there? [That] was the question. You know, we are looking to see what the CPC entails, and I just questioned whether we needed to leave . . . in the CPC “resident ial care home” means “any establishment where board and personal care are provided for two or more unconnected seniors” or disabled persons . It just seemed that we can eliminate that seniors’ home, disabled persons and just . . . if the Bill is . . . if the nomenclature on the Bill, the title, is changed to read ‘Goods for seniors’ and disabled persons’ housing’ then we do not have to go down to the description to be contained within the body. That was just an observation. The other question that I have w as do we . . . if we have the same senior who is identified . . . so let us say my mom, and I modify because my mom lives . . . not my mom, God rest her soul, but someone’s parent lives with them part of the time, they live with another daughter or another son part of the time, each of whom will be required to do renovations to their home to accommodate [them], will this be able to happen? I just want to make sure that if each person decides to renovate their home to accommodate their disabled or elderly parent or family member that there is no restriction on that level of amendment. I do not think for one second that anybody is going to abuse it. I just want to make sure that people know that they can do it as opposed to saying, Well, my sister’s house has accessibility, so maybe b ecause we’re looking after the same senior then maybe I can’t do it because my sister already does it and has the benefit of the zero percentage rate. So, I just wanted to make sure that this was clear.
The ChairmanChairmanOkay. Minis ter? Hon. Curtis L. Dickinson: Mr. Chairman, we will take under advisement the suggestion in the first instance. And in the second instance with respect to the deployment of . . . the capturing of relief by an indivi dual residence, I think the amendment s pecifies in …
Okay. Minis ter?
Hon. Curtis L. Dickinson: Mr. Chairman, we will take under advisement the suggestion in the first instance. And in the second instance with respect to the deployment of . . . the capturing of relief by an indivi dual residence, I think the amendment s pecifies in the end-use conditions [that] goods must be incorporated in or installed on residential care home premises, or any other premises housing a senior. I think that is all - encompassing to capture a home where a senior may live with a relative. And I do not see a restriction here in a case where a family has more than one family member who is sharing the responsibility. And it is my belief that [all] the family members should be able to benefit from the relief.
The ChairmanChairmanAny further speakers? The Chair recognises the Honourable Member Pat Gordon- Pamplin. Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: I just wanted to ensure . . . just to make sure that my question was quite clear, that the premises housing a senior, that it was not “permanently” housing a senior. So, …
Any further speakers? The Chair recognises the Honourable Member Pat Gordon- Pamplin.
Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: I just wanted to ensure . . . just to make sure that my question was quite clear, that the premises housing a senior, that it was not “permanently” housing a senior. So, in other words, if my mom lived with me all the time it is a gi ven, but if she is only part -time with me and part -time somewhere else. I do not think that anybody is going to intentionally modify their homes to provide for specialty care.
The Ch airman: No, I think the Minister has answered that. Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: But I just wanted to make sure. Thank you.
The ChairmanChairmanYes. Any further speakers? Minister, do you want to move this clause as amended? Hon. Curtis L. Dickinson: Mr. Chairman, I would like to move that clause 3 be approved.
The ChairmanChairmanIt is [moved that] clause 3 as amended . . . be approved? Hon. Curtis L. Dickinson: As amended, yes.
The ChairmanChairmanAny objections to approving clause 3 as amended? What is your . . . ? Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: A slight unreadiness; I do have objection to moving it.
The ChairmanChairmanContinue. Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Yes. The one question that I . . . you know, forgive me, but the one question ought to have been asked, and the Minister may have covered it before I came back into the Chamber — 244 30 November 2018 Offici al Hansard …
Continue. Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Yes. The one question that I . . . you know, forgive me, but the one question ought to have been asked, and the Minister may have covered it before I came back into the Chamber —
244 30 November 2018 Offici al Hansard Report
Bermuda House of Assembly The Chairman: You do not . . . hang on. You do not have an objection; you were not ready.
Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: No, I said I have unreadiness.
The ChairmanChairmanOkay. Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: I had unreadiness. And the reason that I had such unreadiness was that I did not ask the question, therefore, I did not get an answer, whether appliances were also going to be included. That was just my question, sorry.
The ChairmanChairmanOkay. Hon. Curtis L. Dickinson: Mr. Chairman, ultimately, with respect to clause 3, the authority is vested with the Director of the Department of Ageing and Disabi lity Services to certify that goods are eligible for relief. We will leave i t to them to decide. I think in some …
Okay.
Hon. Curtis L. Dickinson: Mr. Chairman, ultimately, with respect to clause 3, the authority is vested with the Director of the Department of Ageing and Disabi lity Services to certify that goods are eligible for relief. We will leave i t to them to decide. I think in some cases we probably need to make a policy statement around what the intent is here. Forgive us for not, kind of, contemplating every single thing that probably could come under the umbrella, but inasmuch as there are item s that are appropriate for the proper care of a senior or disabled person, I am certain that we will consider those things.
The ChairmanChairmanDo you have an unreadiness Ms — Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: No. Hon. Jeanne J. Atherden: I do.
The ChairmanChairmanOkay. What is your unreadiness Ms. Atherden? Hon. Jeanne J. Atherden: Thank you. If the Minister could just clarify this where it says that all “Goods must be incorporated in or — Hon. Zane J. S. De Silva: Point of order, Mr. Chai rman.
The ChairmanChairmanYes. POINT OF ORDER Hon. Zane J. S. De Silva: You know, you had asked for speakers, you said no. The Honourable Member moved this clause and then it is like we are restarting again. Is that correct?
The ChairmanChairmanNo, we are not going to restart. It is unr eadiness, Minister. [Inaudible interjections] An Hon. Member: It has not [been] moved. What’s your problem? Sit down.
The ChairmanChairmanIt is unreadiness. Continue, Ms. Atherden. Hon. Jeanne J. Atherden: Sorry, Mr. Chairman, through you to the Minister. I just want clarification because I am sure the people out there . . . if . . . where it says, “Goods must be incorporated in or installed on residential care …
It is unreadiness. Continue, Ms. Atherden.
Hon. Jeanne J. Atherden: Sorry, Mr. Chairman, through you to the Minister. I just want clarification because I am sure the people out there . . . if . . . where it says, “Goods must be incorporated in or installed on residential care home premises housing . . . .” I just want to clarify that if someone purchased an elevator, one of those external elevators, because that obviously would be i nstalled on the persons’ housing, would that then . . . because where they have a disabled person . . . I just want to make . . . because I know there are some people out there that we used to get it under the medical, and I want to make sure that it was still covered.
The ChairmanChairmanMinister, do you want to respond to that, please? Hon. Curtis L. Dickinson: Thanks, Mr. Chairman. I would refer my honourable colleague to my prior comment. I think I wanted to stay away from ar-ticulating individual items for inclusion, because inev itably you are going to leave something out for …
Minister, do you want to respond to that, please? Hon. Curtis L. Dickinson: Thanks, Mr. Chairman. I would refer my honourable colleague to my prior comment. I think I wanted to stay away from ar-ticulating individual items for inclusion, because inev itably you are going to leave something out for som eone’s unique circumstances. And so, again, the Director of the Ageing and Disability [Services] will be able to make a determination around what is appropriate for relief and then it will be considered.
The ChairmanChairmanAny more unreadiness? There appears to be none. Are there any objections to approving clause 3 as amended? There appear to be none. Approved. [Gavel] [Motion carried: Clause 3 passed as amended.] [Inaudible interjection]
The ChairmanChairmanIt has been moved . . . do you want to move this Bill too? Hon. Curtis L. Dickinson: Yes. Mr. Chairman, I move that the Bill be reported to the House [as] printed . . . as amended.
The ChairmanChairmanIt has been moved that the Bill be reported as amended. Any objections to that? [Inaudible interjection] Bermuda House of Assembly The Chairman: I am sorry. I am moving quick, too. Minister, you have to move the preamble first. Hon. Curtis L. Dick inson: I am sorry. The training wheels …
The ChairmanChairmanThat is all right. That is all right. Hon. Curtis L. Dickinson: I move that the preamble be approved.
The ChairmanChairmanAny objections to approving the pr eamble? There appear to be none. Preamble approved. [Crosstalk]
The ChairmanChairmanAnd now you want the Bill reported to the House, right? Hon. Curtis L. Dickinson: Mr. Chairman, I move that the Bill be reported to the House as amended.
The ChairmanChairmanAny objection to the Bill being repor ted to the House as amended? There appear to be none. Approved. [Gavel]
The ChairmanChairmanThe Bill will be reported to the House. [Motion carried: The Customs Tariff Amendment (No. 3) Act 2018 was considered by a Committee of the whole House and pass ed as amended.] House resumed at 2:18 pm [Hon. Dennis P. Lister, Jr., Speaker, in the Chair] REPORT OF COMMITTEE CUSTOMS …
The SpeakerThe SpeakerGood afternoon, Members. Are there any objections to the Customs Tariff Amendment (No. 3) Act 2018 being reported to the House as amended? No objections? So moved. It has been reported and accepted. We will now move on to the next Order of the Day, which is the third item, …
Good afternoon, Members. Are there any objections to the Customs Tariff Amendment (No. 3) Act 2018 being reported to the House as amended? No objections? So moved. It has been reported and accepted. We will now move on to the next Order of the Day, which is the third item, the second reading of the Debt Collection Amendment [sic] Act 2018 in the name of the Minister of Home Affairs. Minister and Deputy Premier, would you like to begin? BILL
SECOND READING
DEBT COLLECTION ACT 2018 Hon. Walter H. Roban: Yes, Mr. Speaker . Mr. Speaker , I move that the Bill entitled the Debt Collect ion Amendment [sic] Act 2018 be now read a second time.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerAny objection to that? None. Continue on, Minister. Hon. Walter H. Roban: Mr. Speaker , may I just make a clarification? As listed in a number of documents, including the Order Paper, the Bill is listed as the Debt Collection Amendment Act. It actually is a standalone Act, it is …
Any objection to that? None. Continue on, Minister.
Hon. Walter H. Roban: Mr. Speaker , may I just make a clarification? As listed in a number of documents, including the Order Paper, the Bill is listed as the Debt Collection Amendment Act. It actually is a standalone Act, it is not an “amendment” Act. It should be titled as it is on the Bill, the Debt Collection Act 2018.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerOkay, noted. Hon. Walter H. Roban: Mr. Speaker , Honourable Member s of the House, I rise to introduce the Bill ent itled Debt Collection Act 2018. The purpose of this Bill is to provide for a Debt Collection Licensing Authority to regulate debt collectors, to prohibit unfair debt collection …
Okay, noted.
Hon. Walter H. Roban: Mr. Speaker , Honourable Member s of the House, I rise to introduce the Bill ent itled Debt Collection Act 2018. The purpose of this Bill is to provide for a Debt Collection Licensing Authority to regulate debt collectors, to prohibit unfair debt collection practices, and provide criminal and civil penalties for contravention and to provide for a tribunal to adjudicate a debt collector and a debtors’ complaints against the Debt Collection Licensing Authority. Honourable Member , who speaks for . . . [Inaudible interjecti on]
Hon. Walter H. Roban: You are welcome.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerAre you presenting that, Minister? Hon. Walter H. Roban: Thank you, Mr. Speaker , I will continue. The Debt Collection Act 2018 represents the first tranche of proposals to address the Government’ s Throne Speech 2017 commitment to “introduce regulations for debt collection agencies; regulate payday lenders who lend money …
Are you presenting that, Minister?
Hon. Walter H. Roban: Thank you, Mr. Speaker , I will continue. The Debt Collection Act 2018 represents the first tranche of proposals to address the Government’ s Throne Speech 2017 commitment to “introduce regulations for debt collection agencies; regulate payday lenders who lend money at extraordinary interest rates; and bring banking, insurance and other financial service conduct under the umbrella of an updated Consumer Protection Act.” Further legislation will be proposed to address consumer services provided by the banking, insurance and other financial services industries after consultation with public and private sector stakeholder groups as indicated in our 2018 Throne Speech. 246 30 November 2018 Offici al Hansard Report
Bermuda House of Assembly Mr. Speaker , you may ask why are we intr oducing this Bill at this time. I would suggest that this is the timing for this Bill. It is actually the perfect time. As we embark on the holiday season, I must remind Honourable Member s and the general public that while it is the season to spend money on good food and expensive gifts, we must ensure that we are not spending to the point where we are broke and worr ying about how to pay our bills in the new year. Mr. Speaker , oftentimes we ar e our own worst enemy when accumulating debt that we find difficult to repay. However, there are times when we incur debt through no fault of our own. One example, if you will allow me, Mr. Speaker , is when a person gets sick, is not insured and has exorbi tant medical costs. If he or she cannot work because of his or her illness, he or she does not have the money to pay the cost. Inevit ably this person’s debt may end up in collection and winds up incurring even greater costs. Mr. Speaker , there have also been cases where persons have been charged for costs that they did not incur. All too often a creditor may not have a contract or proper accounting to support the claim of debt. The purported debtor may spend an inordinate amount of time (and sometimes money) to obtain an accounting of the debt and prove that he or she did not owe the money. In addition, debtors may also be subject to harassment and embarrassment until it is proven that they do not owe any or only a portion of the alleged debt. Mr. Speaker , I would like to highlight three examples, if you will allow, that illustrate why this Bill is so important and also necessary. Client A is diagnosed with an illness that r equires multiple medical treatments. He lost his job as he was unfit to work for months. He no longer has health insurance or a steady income. This resulted in his not being able to meet his mortgage payments, which resulted in the loss of his house, [and] his medical bills and general living expenses having landed him in the hands of debt collectors. Financial Assi stance is assisting with accommodations, but due to his illness and age finding a job has been very difficult. The debt gets larger as interest charges and commi ssion fees each month are added to bills he already cannot pay. Client B, Mr. Speaker , was surprised to r eceive a letter from a debt collection agency stating that she owed for a service that she had no recollection of receiving. The client asked to see the paperwork from the creditor to ensure that it was indeed a bill that she owed. This was not provided. The creditor did not have any substantive paperwork to show the client either. The client decided she was not going to pay anything until it could be proven that she owed the money. Upon investigation it was shown that the client did not owe the creditor and the bill was past the time of legal action to be taken. Had she not questioned the bill she would have paid not only something that she did not owe, but also the excessive fees and commission charges which would have added up to thousands of dollars. Mr. Speaker , client C became suspicious when he did not get the financial business loan he was seeking. He had no debts and had a good bus iness income. Upon investigation he discovered that a debt collection company had his name on record as having a few debts many years ago when he was just starting out. The client had paid off those debts within a year, but yet his name still appeared on a list of debtors. Mr. Speaker , I am sure that Honourable Member s and many credi tors can identify the stories where debtors have abused the system and refused to pay their debts. I am cognisant of the fact that bad debts impact the profitability of businesses and can have the effect of putting companies out of business and employees out of jobs. However, this Bill seeks to introduce fair bus iness practices which will provide a level playing field for creditors and debtors. Mr. Speaker , the proposed Bill provides five important components: 1. establishing a Government Regulatory Licensing Authority for the debt collection industry; 2. prohibiting unfair debt collection practices; 3. requiring financial transparency of contractual penalty fees and limits, interest rates, admi nistrative fees and commission fees; 4. establishing complaint procedures, investigation and inspection powers; 5. creating offences and right of appeal to the Debt Collection Tribunal. Mr. Speaker , Government oversight will be accomplished by a comprehensive licensing regulat ory framework for those entities engaging in debt collection under the newly created Debt Collection Licensing Authority. The Licensing Authority will be constituted by officers within Consumer Affairs. The regulatory functions of the Authority i nclude, but are not limited to: oversight, licensing, education, i nvestigations, and enforcement. Mr. Speaker , no debt collector can operate without a licence issued by the Licensing Authority. Let me repeat that line just so that it is clear, if I did not make it clear already. No debt collector can operate without a li cence issued by the Licensing Author ity. The Authority, upon receipt of an application, supporting documents and payment of a fee can grant, renew and refuse a licence. Licensing will be for a period of up to two years and application for the r enewal of a licence is to be submitted before or on the 31 st of March in the year in which a licence is to be renewed. There is a provision of a 90- day grace period from commencement of the Act to obtain a licence for those who are currently engaging in debt collection
Bermuda House of Assembly business. During this transitional period, the remaining clauses of the Act will be enforced. Mr. Speaker , all creditors, including those creditors who conduct their own debt collection and are exempted from the licensing requirement under Part 3 of the Act, will be subject to Part 4 of the Act on Unfair Debt Collection Practices. This is an area that addresses many of the problems, including, but not limited to: requiring that proper documentation on the amount of the debt is provided to debtors; requir ing that debtors are notified of contract obligations in terms of commission fees and administration fees; and preventing creditors from providing false or mi sleading statements to debtors in order to collect debt. The Bill provides debtors with the right to see and validate the debt paperwork sent by the creditor to the collector. Debtors have 30 days to dispute the debt or any portion of it. Mr. Speaker , the Act includes oversight and accountability of credit reporting agencies through regulations. This will address the harm debtors have experienced when seeking jobs, credit and business opportunities. The regulations will speak to the r emoval of debtors from agencies’ data bases once the debt has been satisfied, and the debtors’ rights to be informed and view information held on them to ensure accuracy. Mr. Speaker , transparency and proper accounting procedures are also addressed within the Act. Debt collectors will be reminded that , having trust accounts and proper accounting practices , debtors will now have receipts that contain a complete accounting of all credits and debits to the debtor’s trust account for ease of repayment tracking. Mr. Speaker , fees and commissions charged to the debtor will be legislated. The Act allows debt collection agencies to charge a commission fee to the maximum (I will repeat —the maximum) of 20 per cent of the original amount of debt, payable only once. I think it is important that people understand that and I will repeat it. The Act allows debt collection agencies to charge a commission fee to the maximum of 20 per cent of the original amount of the debt, payable only once. A monthly administrative fee can be charged to the maximum of 2 per cent of the debt outstanding, payable only if administrative costs arise that rel ate to the necessity for the debt collector to communicate with the debtor in that month. Mr. Speaker , by empowering the debtor with legislative rights to challenge the debt’s accuracy and their right to be treated fairly during the debt recovery process , one must also provide enforcement powers to ensure compliance. The Act provides the Authority the powers to receive and investigate complaints, pr ovides for offences relating to not cooperating with i nvestigations of complaints, the right of redress, the right of the debt collector to appeal to the Debt Collection Tribunal. Mr. Speaker , the Act provides for empowerment of the Minister, on the advice of the Authority, to make regulations subject to negative resolution pr ocedures for matters prescribed under the Act. This provision will afford timely responses to market trends, which will reduce any threat of harm infiltrating the credit and debt collection industry. Mr. Speaker , the Debt Collection Act 2018 encompasses the Government’s firm commitment to protect the rights of consumers by enacting legislation which contains basic obligations owed by those who provide credit and debt collection services. To be clear, this Act does not absolve the debtor from his or her obligation to repay his or her debt. And Mr. Speaker , I am going to repeat that sentence because I think it is important that people understand we are not trying to prevent what should be happening in any event. To be clear, this Act does not absolve the debtor from his or her obligation to repay his or her debt. Mr. Speaker , I now move that the Bill entitled the Debt Collection Act 2018 be read for a second time. Thank you.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThank you, Minister. Would any other Member wish to speak to that? I recognise the Deputy Opposition Leader. Honourable Member , you have the floor.
Ms. Leah K. ScottThank you, Mr. Speaker . Mr. Speaker , I think we all agree that we have either lent or borrowed money at some point in time, whether it was from a bank, whether it was from a friend, whether it was from a loan shark, whether it was from a …
Ms. Leah K. ScottI know. And we lend or borrow believing that people are inherently good and that they will be able to service their debts. And as the Minister has out lined in his brief, there are what they call “high- flyers,” people who just rack up bills and just refuse to …
I know. And we lend or borrow believing that people are inherently good and that they will be able to service their debts. And as the Minister has out lined in his brief, there are what they call “high- flyers,” people who just rack up bills and just refuse to pay them no matter what. But there are people who genuinely fall onto hard times and are unable to service those debts, whether it is due to job loss, or illness, or a cat astrophic financial blow. So I understand the reason for this legislation and I appreciate that there is a legisl ative framework that is being put in place to provide a means by which debt collectors have a set of rules to follow in order to be able to allow them to collect debt. I guess what I would like to see is a piece of legislation that is a little bit more friendly to the debtor. And what I mean by that is that in addition to this legislation there should also be a consumer cr edit coun248 30 November 2018 Offici al Hansard Report
Bermuda House of Assembly selling process, there should also be an educational process. You know, while people do fall onto hard times and do not necessarily willingly not pay their bills, there are times when people just do not have fiscal responsibility, they do not understand how to manage money, and so, you know, you get into a credit association, you pay a bill off, and you find yourself back in the same situation again. So there is part of a learning curve that goes along with it. What I would like to know . . . and I have some technical questions that I will ask when we go into Committee, but I would like to know whether this legislation will cover all debt —so that means mor tgages, credit cards, personal, household, hospital. What is the depth and breadth of the legi slation? Or is it just household and personal debts? And the legislation does not really clearly define the category of debt collectors. So you have got collection agencies, then you have got people that actually buy accounts receivables and then collect that money, and then you have lawyers. And lawyers actually provide a debt collection service. So do they fall . . . is there going to be a greater definition of that category? I would like for it to be expanded.
[Inaudible interjection]
Ms. Leah K. ScottOkay. And then in terms of bill collectors, you know, there have never been real parameters set around when a bill collector can call you. If they want to call you all day, all night, they can. And there is nothing in the legislation that gives you a specific time …
Okay. And then in terms of bill collectors, you know, there have never been real parameters set around when a bill collector can call you. If they want to call you all day, all night, they can. And there is nothing in the legislation that gives you a specific time frame. I know that in the US they can call between 8:00 am and 9:00 pm. And if a person says that they do not want you to contact them anymore, then you do not have the right to contact them. In addition, if you let a bill collector know that t hey cannot contact you on your job, then they have no right to contact you on your job.
[Inaudible interjection]
Ms. Leah K. ScottOkay. One of the things that I would like to see, also, is that . . . there are a lot of things that favour the i nfrastru cture for the debt collectors. But what is the r ecourse if a debt collector is not doing what a debtor needs? …
Okay. One of the things that I would like to see, also, is that . . . there are a lot of things that favour the i nfrastru cture for the debt collectors. But what is the r ecourse if a debt collector is not doing what a debtor needs? So a debtor is required to get certain information, there is no . . . you have to get information within a 30- day period, but there is no consequence if the debtor does not get that information. So what r ecourse does a debtor have? And I understand that you are setting up a tribunal — [Inaudible interjection]
Ms. Leah K. ScottRight. So, you know, my next question would be, Is the tribunal going to replace the court? What role does the court have in this process as it is? I would also . . . I know that there was a consultation process. And I know that some . . …
Right. So, you know, my next question would be, Is the tribunal going to replace the court? What role does the court have in this process as it is? I would also . . . I know that there was a consultation process. And I know that some . . . it was public and that people were invited to write in and give their comments or opi nions. But I would like to know whether the Bermuda Credit Association [BCA] was actually involved in the consultation process. And I would also like to know . . . I am sure we all are aware of Chris Swan, one of the biggest law firms that does a lot of the debt collection work. And I wonder if he was consulted in terms of the process and drafting of the legislation. Again, understanding that infrastructure is being set up, but also making provision so that debt-ors are also protected you can have a complet ely bureaucratic structure that you believe protects the debtor, and it does not. It just provides a structure. So the other question I would like [answered] is that . . . there is a licensing process. So Bermuda Credit A ssociation may have, I do not know, 15 credit collectors. Does this legislation mean that each one of those collectors has to have a licence, plus BCA? Or does the licence at BCA cover all of those collectors? And the other thing is that if a law firm is collecting debt, does that law firm have to get a licence? If Gibbons Company, which extends credit to clients, has to recover a debt, are they required to get a l icence? So those are the things that I would like to address. The reality is, Mr. Speaker , that times are still rough for people. Things are hard. There are people who do not have jobs. And we have to do things that will assist them the best way that we can. So I would like to see a piece of legislation that was a little bit more debtor friendly as opposed to being so bureaucratic. And again, there are skills that need to be taught. There is consumer credit counselling. There is the ability for these agencies to work with the creditors of the people to help them with a payment plan. If people do not have it, they do not have it. S o, you know, I would like to see a little bit more friendliness towards the debtors. The other thing, Mr. Speaker , was when I knew that we were going to debate this legislation I actually went on the BCA’s website. And one of the things that concerned me about their website was they have a section called “Debt Collection,” and if you would allow me to read this please?
Ms. Leah K. ScottSo one of the suggestions that they make to an entity when they are entering into a credit agreement or a credit arrangement is that they have the client sign a form that says: Bermuda House of Assembly “I agree that all agency charges, legal costs and other expenses incurred …
So one of the suggestions that they make to an entity when they are entering into a credit agreement or a credit arrangement is that they have the client sign a form that says:
Bermuda House of Assembly “I agree that all agency charges, legal costs and other expenses incurred by XYZ Co. ltd. in attempting to recover overdue amounts will be charged to the account of the appr opriate debtor. I give permission for XYZ Co. to obtain information from any source to verify any statements made in this applic ation.” So now, Mr. Speaker , when Mrs. Smith goes to Furniture Flair and she wants to get a coffee table because it is Christmas time and she wants to freshen up her house, and they have a coffee table there . . . do you think that the credit company is going to bring this to her attention? Because it is usually in print so small that nobody can see [it]. So she is getting som ething on terms and then she finds out that she cannot pay for it and she finds that the $250 table that she bought on terms is going to cost her $1,000 because she was not able to finish paying for it. So, you know, we have got to educate people to read the f ine print. We have also got to help people to understand that, you know, if you get in trouble and you cannot pay your bills, then call the person who you owe the money to. Most people do not get mad because you cannot pay your bills; they get mad because you ignore them. Most people are really flexible and willing to work out arrangements. There was one other thing, though, that I was really concerned [about], which is on the BCA’s website. And I do not know if it is intended to be on there, but they have said . . . and with your permission, may I read again, Mr. Speaker , please?
Ms. Leah K. ScottThank you. “However, when an established account becomes delinquent, then a standard letter can be sent advising the debtor that payment mus t be made in full within a given time (ten days or so). Failure to do this will result in the debt being sent over to BCA for …
Thank you. “However, when an established account becomes delinquent, then a standard letter can be sent advising the debtor that payment mus t be made in full within a given time (ten days or so). Failure to do this will result in the debt being sent over to BCA for col-lection and all legal, collection and other expenses will be added to their account. ” (Now this is the key sentence) “Whilst th is is not legal and will NOT stand up in a court of law, we will endeavour to recover the additional expenses for you. ” So how can you put that on a website, tell somebody to incorporate it in a letter, and you know that it is illegal? So, you know, while the Credit Ass ociation performs a function—
[Inaudible interjection]
Ms. Leah K. Scott—while they do perform a function in debt collecting, I do not agree with that. I think that that is unfair. The other side of it, though, is that the Bermuda Credi t Association also serves a function in that people become members of the Credit Association. So, for instance, …
—while they do perform a function in debt collecting, I do not agree with that. I think that that is unfair. The other side of it, though, is that the Bermuda Credi t Association also serves a function in that people become members of the Credit Association. So, for instance, when I started my job, I had to have a credit check. And that is important, because people may hire people who have some financial difficulties. They put them in a position of trust or fiduciary r esponsibility, and then they become tempted and then they steal money. So, the role of the Credit Associ ation is a dual role—not only in collecting delinquent accounts, but also providing a service to those members. So, Mr. Speaker , I generally support the legi slation. I do think that it is a bit heavy bureaucratically. I wish that we could actually get a little bit more debtor friendliness within the legislation. And, as I said, I will have some more questions when we go into Commi ttee in terms of the technical components of the Bill. Thank you, Mr. Speaker .
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThank you, Honourable Member . Does any other Honourable Member wish to speak? I recognise Honourable Member Furbert from constituency 6. Honourable Member , you have the floor. Hon. Wayne L. Furbert: Mr. Speaker , let me just say that it is very exciting and, I think, beneficial for Bermudians …
Thank you, Honourable Member . Does any other Honourable Member wish to speak? I recognise Honourable Member Furbert from constituency 6. Honourable Member , you have the floor. Hon. Wayne L. Furbert: Mr. Speaker , let me just say that it is very exciting and, I think, beneficial for Bermudians overall that within such a short time, once again, the Government has acted very quickly to put something which I consider has been very detrimental to our people—
An Hon. Member An Hon. MemberYes. Hon. Wayne L. Furbert: —it has been cruel and, Mr. Speaker , it has been absolutely ridiculous what they have been charging. And I want to lay some numbers out to people so they can see exactly what has been happening in the industry. And I am not saying …
Yes.
Hon. Wayne L. Furbert: —it has been cruel and, Mr. Speaker , it has been absolutely ridiculous what they have been charging. And I want to lay some numbers out to people so they can see exactly what has been happening in the industry. And I am not saying it has been happening to everybody, but in general [this is] how it works. Mr. Speaker , I happened to be fortunate . . . but I was happy to represent a client of m ine who was . . . you know, owed some money. And I thought I would help him out. Well, not as a lawyer, but I work at an accounting firm. And because the debt collectors came after him I said, Let me take a look at this. Give me your transactions. First of all, they held them back for a long time. But once I got them, Mr. Speaker , if I owed $10,000 . . . Mr. Speaker , they charged 33.3 per cent for the first four months . . . 33.3 per cent. That is $3,333.33; which came to (at the end of the fourth month) $10,333.00. Mr. Speaker , for the next five to six months, they charged 50 per cent on the outstanding balance—in the fifth and sixth months. So, let us assume that people do not pay any money because they do not have any money to pay anyway.
An Hon. Member An Hon. MemberYes. 250 30 November 2018 Offici al Hansard Report Bermuda House of Assembly Hon. Wayne L. Furbert: So they then charge . . . so on that $13,333.00 at the end of the fourth month, they charge 50 per cent. So that is an additional $6,666.50. At the end of …
Yes.
250 30 November 2018 Offici al Hansard Report
Bermuda House of Assembly Hon. Wayne L. Furbert: So they then charge . . . so on that $13,333.00 at the end of the fourth month, they charge 50 per cent. So that is an additional $6,666.50. At the end of the sixth month they would then owe $19,999.00. Mr. Speaker , if it on ly would not get worse. In the seventh . . . to one year, . . . remember my balance was $19,999.00, they then charge 66 per cent on top of that, Mr. Speaker . Mr. Speaker , do you know that that is? That is $13,199.00. Add that together and at the end of the year they owed $33,199.00! Mr. Speaker , if you only thought that was just where it ended. In one year, if I have not paid my $33,199.00, they charge me 100 per cent!
The SpeakerThe SpeakerHmm. Hon. Wayne L. Furbert: In other words, Mr. Speaker , in one year and one day I then owe $66,398—from $10,000. And this has been going on from year to year to year. Our people have been ripped off! And you wonder why some of our people are crying. …
Hmm.
Hon. Wayne L. Furbert: In other words, Mr. Speaker , in one year and one day I then owe $66,398—from $10,000. And this has been going on from year to year to year. Our people have been ripped off! And you wonder why some of our people are crying. Mr. Speaker , I am glad that the Opposition is coming and supporting this Bill because it shows that we are finally doing something. And I cannot wait until we come after the banks. But the debt collectors will be first.
An Hon. Member An Hon. MemberYes. Hon. Wayne L. Furbert: The debt collectors will be first . . . what they have been doing has been abusive and putting people in misery. So what does this Government decide to do? We say that if you owe $10,000 . . . by the way, Mr. Speaker …
Yes.
Hon. Wayne L. Furbert: The debt collectors will be first . . . what they have been doing has been abusive and putting people in misery. So what does this Government decide to do? We say that if you owe $10,000 . . . by the way, Mr. Speaker , I forgot this part. If a client of mine paid . . . so let us say they owed $10,000, [and they] paid $5,000 on the 14 th of November. The debt collector does not post it until the end of the month. So for 16 days they are overcharging him. Are you all getting that? I can give you a math class —
[Inaudible interjections ]
Hon. Wayne L. Furbert: I can give you a . . . in other words, they did not post it on the 14th, so they are charging me more. And when the debt collectors found that out, they all ran for cover. My point is that this has been going on. And I am concerned, Mr. Speaker , that this will correct where we are now going forward, but the individuals who have been owing . . . that are owing debt, and that do debt collection right now should be dealt with. We should be almost back -dating some stuff . . . retroactive, and ask them to correct their books and adjust it accordingly. It has been . . . it is sickening, Mr. Speaker , what has been happening out there. And Mr. Speaker , I am glad that this Gover nment is coming forward to make some changes. And so what will happen now? Ten thousand dollars, you are being charged 20 per cent up front. So my bill goes from $10,000 to—
An Hon. Member An Hon. MemberTwelve thousand. [Laughter] Hon. Wayne L. Furbert: There you go! The Honour able Member said $12,000. He must have been in my math class —$12,000. And there is only an administr ation fee of 2 per cent —only when you do administr ation. Not when you think up . . …
Twelve thousand.
[Laughter]
Hon. Wayne L. Furbert: There you go! The Honour able Member said $12,000. He must have been in my math class —$12,000. And there is only an administr ation fee of 2 per cent —only when you do administr ation. Not when you think up . . . come up every month charging an additional 2 per cent. Mr. Speaker , I think that helps the creditor [sic] to at least start to breathe and say, Okay, I can pay some money to you.
An Hon. Member An Hon. MemberDebtor. Hon. Wayne L. Furbert: Sorry, the debtor. The debtor will finally be able to breathe, so that at the end of the year I may owe, if I did not do any changes, I may still owe . . . under this system now, and I did not do …
Debtor.
Hon. Wayne L. Furbert: Sorry, the debtor. The debtor will finally be able to breathe, so that at the end of the year I may owe, if I did not do any changes, I may still owe . . . under this system now, and I did not do any administration, I would owe $12,000 compared to $66,000. Mr. Speaker , this Government . . . I thank all the civil servants who worked hard and did all the r esearch to realise that enough is enough. It stunned everybody, I am sure. And I hope the Royal Gazette prints those numbers in the paper and lays them out clearly . . . what has been going on from going on. Now, Mr. Speaker, I applaud the Government. And there are maybe some future amendments that we need to be making. In other words, I know some of the things that we have got to do as far as administr ation up front, but I am hoping that this administration can be done within the Ministry or the Department of Community and Cultural Affairs when it comes to eff iciency because I think we can f ind some way to hold the line because I do not think we need to be manag-ing this. We need to get information out there to the public and inform the public more often about what is happening, and at the end of day do some self - regulating. In other words they —the debtor —would be able to see what is happening out there and report to Consumer [Affairs Board] that they are being taken . . . unfairly treated by a certain debt collection agency. So Mr. Speaker , this is a historical and I think one of the most progressive Bills that the Government is bringing forward, recognising that people . . . yes, they are . . . sometimes, Mr. Speaker , you just happen to run into problems. Lost my job, I cannot pay. I am suffering, but what can I do? What can we do? Mr. Speak er, we are an unforgiving society. We are a very unforgiving society in many aspects that you can barely think about and it is time to recogBermuda House of Assembly nise that if it was not for the grace of God, some of us would be in their position.
An Hon. Member An Hon. MemberYes. Hon. Way ne L. Furbert: Some of us would be suffering also. But it just happened to be that we were . . . some of us are fortunate and blessed to recognise that we may have a job and maybe we were just fortunate to get things going. …
Yes.
Hon. Way ne L. Furbert: Some of us would be suffering also. But it just happened to be that we were . . . some of us are fortunate and blessed to recognise that we may have a job and maybe we were just fortunate to get things going. But some of us . . . and you wil l probably be amazed by the list of people that you print out. You would be amazed by the people that you see on some of those lists that you may recognise that you think that they are wearing some clothes (because that is what they have got to wear) but i t looks like they have it all made and they are smiling when, Mr. Speaker , deep inside they are hurting. And particularly during the Christmas season, I know we in Hamilton Parish give out turkeys to people that we know really need it. And so we recognise the urgency . . . and, again, I thank the Minister for being progressive and I look forward to when we finally bring a Bill sometime in the future—sometime in the future—to correct the ilk of the banking fraternity that has also been abusing its power over time. Thank you, Mr. Speaker .
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThank you, Honourable Member . Does any other Honourable Member wish to speak? We recognise the Honourable Member from constituency 19. Honourable Member , you have the floor. Hon. Jeanne J. Atherden: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . I guess, Mr. Speaker , I have a couple of questions and concerns. …
Thank you, Honourable Member . Does any other Honourable Member wish to speak? We recognise the Honourable Member from constituency 19. Honourable Member , you have the floor. Hon. Jeanne J. Atherden: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . I guess, Mr. Speaker , I have a couple of questions and concerns. I think we all understand that it is important for us to have the correct procedure in place so that if persons find themselves unable to pay their bills that there is a way in which they can get themselves from underneath the debt. And I think . . . I will start off right from the get - go. My initial concern when I read all of this was why did we feel the need to establish this Debt Collection Agency? Because I always felt t hat you had a Consumers Affairs Board, and that when issues came up . . . because remember most of these things come as a consequence of consumers doing things and entering into agreements, whether it be renting a property, whether it be buying some furnit ure or whatever else. Consumers are out there; consumers start this pr ocess. So I just wondered why . . . recognising that there is the whole issue of whenever you turn and you set up a new agency, you have to get new people i nvolved. This constitutes more cost, et cetera. And I just wondered why the Consumer Protection Agency . . . why the Consumers Affairs Board was not tasked with, if you will, having the responsibility for oversee-ing the processes and procedures that we had in mind. Now I do recognise t hat there definitely needs to be some new processes and new procedures. But as I say, my question was: Why the need for a new agency? And especially when you start to go and look at the Tribunal . . . the tribunal has the Consumer A ffairs Board people on i t as a significant component, so that made me wonder even more whether we might have been better served by extending the responsibil ities that are needed under this to come under the umbrella of the Consumers Affairs Board. Then afterwards I started to get into having a discussion . . . and I will say this because I think . . . I do not . . . as far as I am aware, I do not know whet her the Bermuda Credit Association, or the other peo-ple involved in credit . . . I do not know what type of consultation they have had and what type of input because the bottom line is when I heard the Minister and other people talking about some of the charges, et cetera, I obviously do not know whether that is the current situation or whether that is the way it used to be. And it is very important to understand . . . not so much to understand what might have happened in the past, because we are dealing with the future and we are dealing with the present and, therefore, coming down and having a 20 per cent collection charge, if that is deemed to be appropriate, then people that are in that business will have to turn around and they will have to get themselves on the right side of their business model in how they will stay in business. And I am not here advocating for people to talk about staying in business. I am really just adv ocating from the point of view of saying if we are going to put a system in place, how do we make sure that it is the right system? And how do we make sure that it is fair both ways? Because I know that I heard the Minister —both Ministers —I heard them go through about all the exercises, et cetera, and talk about what happened with the people that they were thinking about, the three scenarios. But what I did not hear with the scenario is li ttle Mrs. Smith who has her apartment that she has out to rent and she has got this, you know, this is her source of income to make sure that she makes her ends meet between the pension that she gets and all the other bills, and she is relying on this tenant to come and pay her rent on time and make sure that she gets her rent. So, unfortunately, Mrs. Smith is out there going along hoping that the rent will come in on time. And in some cases, depending on whether Mrs. Smith is sav v y . . . [or] if Mrs. Smith is not sav v y, she comes and she speaks to the tenant and they agree and they are going to come in place and they are so happy because they needed a roof over their heads, and she just goes along and she goes on the basis that a handshake [is enough], and off she goes. And 252 30 November 2018 Offici al Hansard Report
Bermuda House of Assembly whether [she] likes it or not, that person starts to get behind. Now, I know the scenario has been painted that they lost their job and whatever else. But I am sorry, there are also the scenarios of . . . there is a trip and all of a sudden Mrs. Smith’s tenant is gone off somewhere and they are doing things, et cetera, and the rent is not being paid and Mrs. Smith is now saying, Hey, wait a minute. I needed that rental income to take care of my mortgage payment that I was paying. And so, you know, it is not j ust as simple as what we say. There are people that, I agree, have done some things on both sides. And I think as we go forward we have to make sure that the protections that both sides of the equation need to have happen . . . the debtor —
Hon. Wayne L. F urbert: Point of order, Mr. Speaker .
The SpeakerThe SpeakerI will take your point of order. POINT OF ORDER Hon. Wayne L. Furbert: I believe the Honourable Member is confusing things. There is a Landlord and Tenant Act [1974] that we can deal with, but this does not affect the tenant . . . the landlord, sorry. This is …
I will take your point of order.
POINT OF ORDER
Hon. Wayne L. Furbert: I believe the Honourable Member is confusing things. There is a Landlord and Tenant Act [1974] that we can deal with, but this does not affect the tenant . . . the landlord, sorry. This is the . . . the abuse is done by the debt collector , not the tenant . . . not the landlord.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThank you. Continue on, Member. Hon. Jeanne J. Atherden: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Mr. Speaker , the things that we are talking about are when the person is not able to pay the debt and how the landlord is now . . . or not even the landlord, the …
Thank you. Continue on, Member.
Hon. Jeanne J. Atherden: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Mr. Speaker , the things that we are talking about are when the person is not able to pay the debt and how the landlord is now . . . or not even the landlord, the person who has the business, how they are now trying to get information to deal with the debt. But I sta rted to say about . . . if Mrs. Smith was not savvy . . . but then let us think about if Mrs. Smith was savvy and decided that [she] might need to get some information on this individual before [she] chose to rent to them. Now if that is the case, one of the ways of doing that is potentially to ask them about, you know, Do you have any debt? Or do you have any outstanding bills? Et cetera. And this is where you might find that . . . if they were part of the Credit Ass ociation, or some other association, they might be i nterested in getting some information back about the credit worthiness of the individual. And all I am saying is that you cannot just not recognise that these things happen. And if we are out there and if people believe that they are encouraged to keep their credit ratings up because it is good for them, you have to under-stand that part of not keeping your credit ratings up or paying your bills is the result that perhaps people will decide that, if they have a choice between two indi-viduals, they will choose the person who has a good credit rating, or does not have debts, or whatever else, because they are afraid that they might be on the wrong side of the person’s cash distribution. I am saying that because the concern is [that] we want to get t his situation such that it is good for both—it is good for the debtor, it is good for the creditor. And I am in full agreement that you should not have interest charges adding on and on and on. And the scenario that the last speaker suggested . . . you know, I would hope that some of the people that are out there in the debt agency, some of them now will come back and maybe clarify whether those things still happen. I am not aware of, but obviously I have not been and seen some of the current scenarios I know that people do . . . when they get the debt, I know that they are actually, obviously, advised by the Credit Association that they have the charge and they go on and they talk about a payment arrangement. And as the Minister said, everybody is always encouraging everybody to say, when you get into trouble, have the conversation with whomever you owe the debt to [in order] to come up with some credit arrangement. Because usually, if that happens, people are understanding, people are prepared to help you go a long way as possible. But many times when these things get to this situation—and we have to recognise that —it is either because someone did not tell the people of the situation they were in or, not only that they did not tell them, they created . . . worsened the situation by doing things like buying things that [their] landlord could see where those monies could effectively come to [them] —to a landlord who is pinching pennies and making sure that they make their ends meet. So it is not as clear -cut and as simple . . . and I recognise that some of the things that have been put into place are designed to take care of, what I call, some of the bad things that have happened in the past, or the bad pieces where something needs to be done. So, as I say, my understanding and appreci ation of having a Debt Collection Act is understood. I just wondered why it needed to be as a separate ent ity and why it did not come under the Consumer A ffairs. My second [concern] then came down to this whole thing about sharing i nformation. Now, I would . . . it would be interesting for the Minister to clarify, because if you are a member of the Bermuda Credit Association, you obviously paid money so that you get information from the Association. And information from the Associati on is about maybe what is happening out there in the credit industry. It might be information that also indicates that they are putting some seminars on about what you might want to do with respect to writing leases, rental agreements, or they might put some information on about how persons could enter into agreements with individuals to try and protect themselves and also protect the individual.
Bermuda House of Assembly And I say that because we have to recognise that going forward some of the things that people used to do in the past . . . legislation is changing some of the things that happen now, like the PIPA [Personal Information Protection Act]. [It] means that you have to turn around and you have to make sure that when you had that agreement that you used to have, that peopl e understand that maybe you . . . if they want to have a credit check, it has to be indicated there. So some things are changing over time whereby things that people did in the past they cannot do any longer because some of the laws and some of the rules have come and will make it more difficult. So if someone puts in their lease that when you sign it you agree to a credit check, well, that means that the individual has to know that someone is going to call up and get some information on their credit worthi ness. Now, sometimes, it is better off, if there is an issue where you are running into trouble, that som eone should say it, because then you have got both parties being willing, a person who is going to enter into a lease and someone who is going to give it . . . at least they will have a clear understanding of what the issues are. And maybe this landlord will still decide that they are going to go ahead and still rent to you. But, on the other hand, if you have people who are jumping from landlord to landlord and leaving a trail of people who are, unfortunately, having to try and collect their money, then that is not fair either. So I think everybody wants a degree of fai rness. They want fairness. We have all been talking about not having people being char ged, and the rates go up, so some of the changes here from the point of view of the amount that can be charged for the collec-tion agency, the amount that can be added onto your bill, those are reasonable. And I think that some of the changes that are being suggested . . . I just see the Minister . . . letting his . . . the Minister putting his — [Inaudible interjections ]
Hon. Jeanne J. Atherden: No, no, that is why I am saying . . . some of the changes . . . let me make sure that I am clear —
[Inaudible interjections]
Hon. Jeanne J. Atherden: Some of the changes that are being suggested I think . . . some of the changes that are being suggested I think, then, are not unreasonable. Therefore, it means that the people that are in the business have to turn around and look at their business model and see how it works. But you have to do something on the other side as well. If you are ending up having the 2 per cent, or whatever else, added on, I think it is important to figure out . . . and maybe this is wher e, if you are talking to the collection agencies . . . how effective are, what I call some of these sticks, from the point of view of getting people to turn [around] and honour their debt and pay their bills? Because for some people the stick was the amount of the interest rate. And I am not saying that you should have it so high that you are frightening people and you are making—
Hon. Walter H. Roban: [It is] 100 per cent.
Hon. Jeanne J. Atherden: Well, as I say — [Inaudible interjection] Hon. Jeanne J. Atherden: All I said to you is I believe it is important that you speak to people like the Credit Association and debt collection agencies because—
Hon. Walter H. Roban: We have done that.
Hon. Jeanne J. Atherden: —because, as far as I am aware, they . . . especially the Credit Association has not been consulted.
Hon. Walter H. Roban: That is not true.
Hon. Jeanne J. Atherden: Well, the Minister can talk about it afterwards and perhaps he can—
Hon. Walter H. Roban: Point of order, Mr. Speaker .
The Sp eaker: I will take your point of order.
POINT OF ORDER
Hon. Walter H. Roban: I do not believe the Honour able Member is intentionally doing this, but it does suggest that perhaps their side has not been as . . . taken the time to research out in the publi c about this Act.
An Hon. Member An Hon. MemberYes. Hon. Walter H. Roban: There was considerable consultation. And it would be illogical to have not come forth without going to the Credit Association and other practitioners. I just want to say that . . . I am just saying that because she does not know. Perhaps she has …
Yes.
Hon. Walter H. Roban: There was considerable consultation. And it would be illogical to have not come forth without going to the Credit Association and other practitioners. I just want to say that . . . I am just saying that because she does not know. Perhaps she has not gone and talked to them, but they were consulted. I just want to be clear because I do not want the public, by implication, to believe that we did not do that. Thank you.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThank you. Continue, Member. Hon. Jeanne J. Atherden: Mr. Speaker , maybe I have to say the same thing as well. I would not have made some of the statements if I had not had a statement given to me. And so I am not going to get into the …
Thank you. Continue, Member.
Hon. Jeanne J. Atherden: Mr. Speaker , maybe I have to say the same thing as well. I would not have made some of the statements if I had not had a statement given to me. And so I am not going to get into the he said, she said . . . but all I am going to get into saying is that I did go out and ask some of the 254 30 November 2018 Offici al Hansard Report B ermuda House of Assembly questions and ask about the consultation, because as far as I was concerned I just wanted to get some more background. But the bottom line is, as this goes forward— [ Inaudible interj ections] Hon. Jeanne J . Atherden: —a s this goes f orward, i t is important for us recognis e that w e want t o try and have people enteri ng int o agreements; w e want to have them havi ng som e sort of carrot or stick because— [Inaudible interjections] The Speak er: Okay. Speak to the Chair, speak to the Chair. Hon. Jeanne J. Atherden: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . I am trying . . . I am trying not to—
The SpeakerThe SpeakerYes, speak to the Chair. Hon. Jeanne J. Atherden: I am trying to do that, Mr. Speaker . So, from my perspective it is important — [ Inaudible interjections]
The SpeakerThe SpeakerMembers, do not drown out the speaker. There should only be one voice coming over. Hon. Jeanne J. Atherden: So, so, so, from my perspective when I look at the Act, and I understand why we put things in place, because over time . . . even though there are …
Members, do not drown out the speaker. There should only be one voice coming over. Hon. Jeanne J. Atherden: So, so, so, from my perspective when I look at the Act, and I understand why we put things in place, because over time . . . even though there are only a few collection agencies and you might have some lawyers and other persons that do that collection, and you might have some other people that collect as an extension of their lending or their selling of their products. It is important that anybody who is going to be in this business knows that there is a practice, there is a set of standards that they are going to be held to. And, therefore, to come up with some sort of licensing, I understand the need for that. But, as I say, I was just concerned as to why we were just adding another layer and just wonder why it was not done through the Consumer Affairs. Now [one of] the last few things that I came up with was the fact that it just seems to me, and maybe this is the . . . I think I have heard the Consumer A ffairs Bureau did do this in the past. And maybe this gets back to why I thought that they had a role to play. I know that they come and they talk to people about entering into agreements, and they remind them, especially like around about Christmas time and other places, about taking on debt that they cannot manage. And I know that years ago, and maybe this is . . . the Junior Finance Minister will get around to . . . I know at one time when people were entering into loan agreements, et cetera, the only thing that people looked at was, what I call, their fixed salary. But I also know that over time what started to end up happening was that people started to add their overtime into it . And, before they knew it, that became a number that they were using to say that is the amount of income that they were going to have to service their obligations. We all know that overtime is not something that one can guarantee and you cannot bank on i t. And that is why a lot of times you have seen people where their mortgages get under water because [of a] wrong calculation and the wrong, if you will, debt -torevenue ratio was used. And that is resulting [in] it. And so it is a combination of the indiv iduals themselves shortening themselves because, unless the agency went back and looked at all the details, it was not quite as accurate as the information that was there. So it is important for people, when they take on obligations, to understand that they are taking on a business obligation and afterwards somebody is going to be relying on them to live up to their obligations. And I say that because the part that I always worry about is all those little Mr. and Mrs. Smiths who have the apartments and have the people who do not pay their rent and then, afterwards, they are left trying to collect. And that is where most . . . a lot of times the collection agencies end up being the ones who have to try and go out and try and find these individuals who miraculously . . . in the size of Bermuda, I never understood how, in 22 square miles, people are somehow not able to find people. But I know, I bet you, if it was . . . I bet you if it was talking about you have just been given a prize to go on a trip, people have a way of finding them. So I am saying . . . and I am not being fac etious, I am just saying that it is . . . there are two sides to this, Mr. Speaker .
The SpeakerThe SpeakerYes. Hon. Jeanne J. Atherden: And, therefore, as I say, I am supportive of an agency; I am supportive of making sure that they do not do things which are haras sing. But I do think that a couple of these things I, perhaps, worry about . . . when …
Yes. Hon. Jeanne J. Atherden: And, therefore, as I say, I am supportive of an agency; I am supportive of making sure that they do not do things which are haras sing. But I do think that a couple of these things I, perhaps, worry about . . . when you say that people cannot give information . . . I am just . . . it just concerns me, especially if you are part of an agency and the agency, as part of their service to you, their service to you is to be able to either provide a credit information or to indicate that someone has a credit history. Now, this whole question of how long one has a credit history, obviously, that is something that should be subject to some sort of review. Because if you . . . I would think that if you did not have a credit, something outstanding that you had 10 years ago, that nobody is going to be turning around and saying,
Bermuda House of Assembly Well, you know, he’s on the debtor list. You are really . . . normally you are looking at stuff that is current and you are looking at information that people are saying, Based on our current information this is what we have. I think, Mr. Speaker , I am not on anyone’s side from the perspective . . . because, as I say, you have debtors and you have creditors. And Mr. and Mrs. Granny who is out there looking to have . . . find her . . . get her money, she has to have somebody to assist her. And we just . . . we have to make sure that the right . . . we have to make sure that there is the right process in there to help her. And we also have to have the right process in there so people honour their obligations. Because if you honour your obligations then there are fewer r equirements to turn and start to go and chase you, there are fewer requirements to get on the phone and call you up. Because if you say to me, Call me up and I’ll be in there next week, and you are in there the next week, then the people do not need to call. Or if you say, Well, oh, . . . you cannot be found, then people have to do some of these things because they have a responsibility to Mr. and Mrs. Granny Smith to say, Well, you know, I cannot find the $8,000 that this person owes you. So, I think we all should be on the side of saying . . . have people that are in business that do not end up creating, what I call, the Shylock -type mental ity, have people that are in business that are scrupulous, have people in business that are going out t here and honouring all of these changes that we make, but at the same time we have to make sure that there is some sort of, what I call, “carrot” or “threat,” if you will, so that people will honour their obligations and will choose to not get into debt because they do not want to go down that path. And when you start to talking about high- flyers . . . well, I am sorry, Mr. Speaker , that is a way of not identifying that there are some people out there that are very much using these Granny Smith’s and other people. And for Granny Smith, they do not want to know about them as a high- flyer, they would like to have people that have been a really good payer . . . and some of these people end up reducing their rents because they want to have somebody in there and they want somebody to stay and be a tenant forever. They do not want a high- flyer, and they do not want to be sucked in by a high- flyer. So it is important for us to do something also about high- flyers, because highflyers are detrimental to the people out there that rely on the collection of their debts. Mr. Speaker , as I say, I believe that it is i mportant. I just wondered why (back to my original thing) it was not put under the Consumer Affairs. B ecause I just worry about having to add more stuff, add more overhead, when we already have enough. And I believe that the Consumer Affairs Board . . . I have seen them. I have heard them on the air. I have seen them in operation, and I believe that they are very s e-rious about their jobs. I believe that the peopl e that you have there have a record of excellence, and so I just wondered why the need for a new one. Thank you, Mr. Speaker .
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThank you, Honourable Member . Does any other Honourable Member wish to speak? We recognise the Honourable Member from constituency 36. Honourable Member , you have the floor. Hon. Michael J. Scott: Good afternoon, Mr. Speaker , thank you. So I am a little surprised that the Honourable former Opposition …
Thank you, Honourable Member . Does any other Honourable Member wish to speak? We recognise the Honourable Member from constituency 36. Honourable Member , you have the floor.
Hon. Michael J. Scott: Good afternoon, Mr. Speaker , thank you. So I am a little surprised that the Honourable former Opposition Leader thinks that the state of being, of the red ink in our country, largely falling in the category of one sector of this population—the black population—why she thinks that the efforts we are making today through the Minister of Home Affairs, led firstly though by the former Minister of Home A ffairs, Mr. Walton Brown, why she thinks that the Consumer Affairs is a proper residence for the addressing of this problem of bad practices in debt. All the Honourable Member need do is ask the question, How good a job have they done up to date? And the answer has to be a resounding . . . it is not adequate enough. Clearly, some of the provisions in this Bill have been long, a long time coming, are necessary to deal with the whole profile of debt in our country. I can recall . . . you see, Mr. Speaker , we have a structural problem —and that is why I have gotten to my feet —in this country.
Hon. Jeanne J. Atherden: Point of clarification, Mr. Speaker .
The SpeakerThe SpeakerYield, Honourable Member , for a point of clarification. POINT OF CLARIFICATION Hon. Jeanne J. Atherden: I believe that the Member is misleading the House in the sense that I acknow ledged that there was something that needed to be done. All I suggested was that the Consumer Affairs Board …
Yield, Honourable Member , for a point of clarification.
POINT OF CLARIFICATION
Hon. Jeanne J. Atherden: I believe that the Member is misleading the House in the sense that I acknow ledged that there was something that needed to be done. All I suggested was that the Consumer Affairs Board might be better suited than establishing a new group. I did not say that there wer e things that did not need to be done. And some of the new stuff, obviously, they did not have under their umbrella, so how can you fault them?
The SpeakerThe SpeakerMinister, Honourable Member, conti nue. Hon. Michael J. Scott: So, the Honourable Member continues to be just unrealistic. The problem is dire . . . the problem is. And this represents . . . this is just 256 30 November 2018 Offici al Hansard Report Bermuda House of Assembly a …
Minister, Honourable Member, conti nue. Hon. Michael J. Scott: So, the Honourable Member continues to be just unrealistic. The problem is dire . . . the problem is. And this represents . . . this is just 256 30 November 2018 Offici al Hansard Report
Bermuda House of Assembly a retrofitting to a very structural problem of one sector of this community being weighted into the category of being the consumers in this country —and that is the black community. And the other portion of our society being weighted into being the seller community in this community —and that is largely, in the main, our white population of business owners. And there is this constant drive for the consumer class to consume at Christmas, at Cup Match, and all during the 365 days of the year. And so the creation of this environment has contributed to, if not entirely responsible for, the red ink that you find at the Bermuda Credit Association, for the diffic ulties with tenants in trouble with their rents, because they have become willing actors in just consuming to a degree that is detrimental. Now, Mr. Speaker , and I make the point, I am back to the structural problem in our country, were black folks in this country in greater numbers as sellers, as business owners, would, and we would, have better practices about savings and investing and there would be a balance. So I wanted to get up to make the very point that this is reactionary to a problem that has been go-ing on throughout our history. I look forward to the day when more of us in the black side of this community, of this country, this Island are engaging as owners of capital and selling. And it will be good for all concerned. So when the Honourable form er Opposition Leader says that the Bill is . . . in the history of this country bad things have happened, I suggest that one of the primary bad things that has happened has been this current environment where there is a structural imbalance between the consumers and the sellers of consumable goods.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerMember, will you yield for a point of order? I will take your point of order. POINT OF ORDER [Misleading]
Ms. Susan E. JacksonI am suggesting that the Honourable Member is misleading the House. Debt collection agencies are made up of a cross section of this community. I do not see where this becomes a huge racial divide. The people who are collecting debts, of which we are speaking today, are of all …
I am suggesting that the Honourable Member is misleading the House. Debt collection agencies are made up of a cross section of this community. I do not see where this becomes a huge racial divide. The people who are collecting debts, of which we are speaking today, are of all races across the Island. There is a balanced mix, from what I understand, people that I know.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThank you. Member? Hon. Michael J. Scott: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . So, I am sure the Honourable Member was not listening to me. I was talki ng about the consuming public. The debt collection agencies are a symptom of the structural problems. They have been put in place as …
Thank you. Member? Hon. Michael J. Scott: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . So, I am sure the Honourable Member was not listening to me. I was talki ng about the consuming public. The debt collection agencies are a symptom of the structural problems. They have been put in place as a literal battalion to deal with this encroaching and developing debt in our country. And surely they need to be regulated. And the reason . . . and for the example of Mrs. Smith, the lady citizen who is just trying to make her rent meet her mortgage, you know, debt . . . it is a bad comparison. The debt collection agencies have a different set of parameters under which to operate because, Mr. Speaker , debt collection agencies have staff and rent to meet, whereas Mrs. Smith is simply hoping that her tenant is going to pay the rent so that she meets her mortgage. So the comparison was not a good one. And the reason why debt collection agencies, and law firms, too, get way out of whack and way out of line, is because of their overheads —quite different from just Mrs. Smith who has a tenant as a landlord and tenant relationship. So the Bill is of good intent. But I look forward to the day when we deal with the structural problems in our country, Mr. Speaker . This will be a better day for us. But in the meantime, and I concur with the Junior Minister of Finance who promises that the v agaries and poor practices of insurance compani es who engage in lending, and certainly the banks, with these remarkable rates of interest that are charged, and how they manage mortgages, I look forward to that day . . . which will begin to address, again, some of these structural inequities in our country. Thanks.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThank you, Honourable Member . Does any other Honourable Member wish to speak? I recognise the Honourable Member from constituency 23. Honourable Member , you have the floor. Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Mr. Speaker , I just wanted to highlight one or two points. …
Thank you, Honourable Member . Does any other Honourable Member wish to speak? I recognise the Honourable Member from constituency 23. Honourable Member , you have the floor.
Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Mr. Speaker , I just wanted to highlight one or two points. First of all, I think the Honourable Member who just took his seat from [constituency] 36. I just wanted to make clear to him and to the Honourable House that our former Leader, when she spoke, did not support the status quo. What she was effectively trying to say is that she recognises that there are things that have gone wrong on both sides of the aisle and, therefore, she supported the legislation that was being implemented in order to put things right. But I reiterate the comments that she made, that this morning in a Ministerial Statement we heard about the approach towards streamlining certain departments of Government. And it just seemed that, as
Bermuda House of Assembly opposed to creating a whole new bureauc ratic entity, it seemed as though the professionals that we have at the Consumer Protection Agency —and this is not saying that they are taking over the job of the debt collec-tors—but that they could, perhaps, be able to incorporate in their structure the Licensing Authority that is being appointed, as opposed to having a new entity according to what we heard, or what I thought I understood, when the Minister spoke. So I think that was the point that my honour able colleague was attempting to make and I just wan ted to make sure that this was clear because, you know, to hear the Honourable Member from [constit uency] 36 mention it, it is almost as though we have no sensitivity to black people in this country who are struggling—and there is nothing further from t he truth. Many of us, if you look at our demographic and if you look at our pigmentation, fall into that same category. So I do not think that it is fair to have this . . . to co ntinue to have on every single thing that we do this “us and them” mentality w hen we are in this together. I think that this was important.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerPoint of order. POINT OF ORDER [Misleading]
Mr. Rolfe CommissiongI think the Member is egr egiously misleading the House. [Inaudible interjections ]
The SpeakerThe SpeakerAh, ah, ah, Members, Members!
Mr. Rolfe CommissiongIf the facts . . . if the facts, the evidence, the data, speak to Two Bermudas, then we have [the] responsibility to talk about it so that we can remedy those disparities. Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: I did not have a problem with that.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerContinue on. Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Sorry. I certainly did not have a problem with that, and that is exactly what my honourabl e colleague had indicated. So, you know, I do not know . . . you know, we have this tug- of-war mentality, which is really not …
Continue on.
Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Sorry. I certainly did not have a problem with that, and that is exactly what my honourabl e colleague had indicated. So, you know, I do not know . . . you know, we have this tug- of-war mentality, which is really not necessary on things on which we agree. We may, as I said before, we may not necessarily agree on how we get to the end, but the end that we are hoping to achieve is certainly synonymous. We do not have an issue with that. Mr. Speaker , in an ideal world we might be able to live according to Shakespeare’s Hamlet when Polonius effectively was saying to his son, Laertes, as he was on his way going off to Paris, Neither a debtor nor a lender be, for loan oft loses both itself and friend. And that is in an ideal world because the real ity is there are not many of us who will find ourselves going down the pathway of life and having no necess ity to either borrow or to lend. And I think that it is the responsibility of each and every one of us to be suff iciently educated, when we are borrowers, to understand what our responsibilities are in order to ensure that we can meet the commitments for w hich we have signed. We know that there are several instances, Mr. Speaker , in which you have aggressive salesmen who, perhaps, are meeting commission requirements. And in that aggression you may have an unsuspecting debtor (ultimately becomes a debtor) walking into a business, and that commissioned person is now pus hing . . . I think I ended up buying a vacuum cleaner that I probably did not need because it was new and different and, you know, had water and all that kind of stuff. And you buy encyclopaedias, you buy all kinds of things that ultimately you may not necessarily need to have. And then people can find themselves in the situation, [after] having made the acquisition, where it may be difficult for them to meet the commitment to finance it. So we understand that. But I think that if we attempt to move towards a regime of credit reports, of having a credit score, it may even help to enhance our ability as consumers to put the brakes on ourselves to say, You know what? I really don’t need this, and I really can’t afford that. And a lot of the collecting agency issues will probably go away if we are able to manage ourselves effectiv ely. But that takes a long time. That is going to be a thought process and a mind- set and a paradigm shift into how we oper ate as people. But let us not fool ourselves. The credit agencies . . . the collection agencies found an opportunity to be able to earn a reasonably good living by doing very little. It does take some effort to go out and to show up in court with a . . . you know, to sort of bring a debtor to court and to have a show cause summons, why somebody should or should not be expected to pay the debt for which they are charged. And, histor ically, these credit agencies have become all but extortionate, if I can say that. And to have rules and regul ations that control the amounts that they are likely to charge, is a good thing. But let me also say that when . . . if I refer back to the instance of the aggressive salesman, it seems to me that we should also be consider ing whether, in fact, the credit agencies should have the ability —these are the collecting agencies, if I said “credit agencies” I am meaning those interchangeably—should have the ability, instead of charging 258 30 November 2018 Offici al Hansard Report
Bermuda House of Assembly 20 per cent maximum to the debtor . . . because truth be told, Mr. Speaker , if you do not have $100 to pay the bill, you do not have $120 to pay the bill. So I think we need to be mindful that if we are being concerned about people and their ability to pay and their ability not to find themselves sinki ng under their debt, that maybe a part of that commission . . . maybe not the 20 per cent, but maybe 5 per cent of that 20 per cent we actually charged back to the creditor, the provider, because it is the provider who took the risk to allow the debtor to be able to acquire that which they now cannot afford to pay for. So I think that this is a poss ibility that we could consider as time goes on. Mr. Speaker , the comments that were made by the Honourable Junior Minister were, obviously, frightening. And when you stop to think about how extortionate some of these practices have become, you know, that is unsustainable and, as I said, if you . . . I think he indicated a particular instance where somebody started off owing $10,000 and ultimately ended up owing $66,000 on that same debt based on the extortionate charges that had gone through. Well, clearly, that is unacceptable. And if those charges have been raised as a result of interest . . . I am sorry, collection charges being placed on top of it, and then adm inistrative charges being placed on top of that, then there is a limit. There is a limit. B ecause, as I said, if you do not have $100 you do not have $120. If you were not able to pay the first debt, you are going to find it very difficult to pay the debt plus penalties that have accrued on top of it. But I think an Honourable Member said earlier that they are looking forward to these sorts of things being extended to the banks. Because when one stops to look at the . . . just take a credit card as an example. You are paying a 19.75 per cent compounded interest rate on your outstanding balance. That is extortion by any way that you stretch the imagination.
An Hon. Member An Hon. MemberDo you have a credit card? Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Yes, I do have credit cards. So to the extent that this legislation . . . But there are some, Mr. Speaker , who are mindful of credit. And I can just give an anecdotal situation, Mr. Speaker . …
Do you have a credit card?
Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Yes, I do have credit cards. So to the extent that this legislation . . . But there are some, Mr. Speaker , who are mindful of credit. And I can just give an anecdotal situation, Mr. Speaker . I can remember having a home equity line of credit. And I had one account into which the money went for the payments to be taken out on a standing order basis on a monthly basis. And this particular month I was blessed enough to receive a bonus from my company. So I put the bonus in the account, sent a note to the bank and I said, Can you reduce my loan by the amount of the bonus that I had gotten? I thought, I can have a big lump- sum payment. And I gave them a big letter to say that this is in . . . it is . . . I am sorry, not in addition to the normal, but instead of the normal payment that you would take out of my account.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerOn your principal only. Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Come the end of the month, my statement comes and my account was in overdraft. It was in overdraft because they had taken out both the special amount —the balloon payment that I had asked for —as well as the normal …
On your principal only.
Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Come the end of the month, my statement comes and my account was in overdraft. It was in overdraft because they had taken out both the special amount —the balloon payment that I had asked for —as well as the normal payment. And it overdrew me by I think twelve dollars and change by taking out both payments. So I called the bank and I raised Cain because . . . because of that overdraft they had charged me $30 for in unauthorised transaction fees. So I called them up and I said, No, wait a minute, it was your mistake and I need you to have a look at the letter that I sent —the instruction—and make sure that these charges are now correct. And they apologised profusely and came back and said, We do apologise, we have reversed the $30 charge that we put against your account, we have reversed the regular amount of the monthly payments so, therefore, your account is now back in credit for the total of the excess payment that we had taken plus the $30 overdraft charge fees. But then when my statement came at the end of the month, Mr. Speaker , they charged me 10 cents interest for the day or two days that my account was in overdraft. And I sent them a letter. My staf f were laughing at me. They thought that I was being petty, that I was being picayune, to say to the bank, You charged me 10 . . . it was only 10 cents . And they were saying it was petty, it was only 10 cents. But, no; it is my 10 cents. And it is the pri nciple, because if everybody ended up having to pay because of somebody else’s mistake then, you know, there would be an awful lot of credit that people will have to which they are not entitled. And the debtor is the one who suffers the penalty and the consequences. I listened to the Minister also when he gave his anecdotal explanations at the beginning and spoke of the person who was supposed to receive . . . oh, sorry, who had received a bill, but was not convinced that they had actually received the ser vices for which the bill had representation. And that could be any one of us. Mr. Speaker , I do not do credit associations because I have been blessed enough to try to man-age my affairs in such a way that it has never been necessary. But I did start to get some harassing phone calls on the back of a letter that came from a credit association to say that I had a bill for BELCO. And I am like, Wait a second. If I had an outstanding bill for BELCO, I would have no lights! I have got three meters, they are all up to date, as far as I know. So what would BELCO be sending my name to the credit association for?
Bermuda House of Assembly So, I called the credit association to ask what initiated this call, why would I have a bill for BELCO? And they told me that my name was similar to the name of somebody who they had on their records, and they could not find that person so, therefore, they sent the Bill to me. And I am thinking this is absolut ely—
The SpeakerThe SpeakerYou should have paid it for them, see that? Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Yes, well, Mr. Speaker —
The SpeakerThe SpeakerBe nice, pay it for them. Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: —I am not that benevolent. So these are the kinds of things that if som ebody does not have the wherewithal to examine the charges that they are receiving and the collections that the agencies are indicating to be …
Be nice, pay it for them.
Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: —I am not that benevolent. So these are the kinds of things that if som ebody does not have the wherewithal to examine the charges that they are receiving and the collections that the agencies are indicating to be appropriate, if someone does not have the wherewithal, then they could find themselves in a situation of being . . . you know, nobody wants to have a credit agency calling them up. They could be frightened, and frightened to the extent of not even realising that this bill is not legi timately theirs. So the credit agencies are not coming to this equation with clean hands altogether. I am not saying that they are, perhaps, intentionally gouging people, but they are not coming with clean hands. So to have an oversight and to have control over that which they do, I think, is very positive for the consumer. Mr. Speaker , I know that legislation of this type can conceivably lead to unintended consequences. And I say that from the perspective that you will have lenders, creditors, who will now consider that the borrowing . . . or sorry, the extending of credit to an individual may create for them less of an opportunity, if something should go into collections, for the collection agency to be minded to do the collections for what their commission is now going to be. And, as such, the creditor may start to think twice about whether they are going to advance to a debtor a good or service that otherwise might have been a no brai ner. We go back to the banks. And even though I recognise that the banks are not covered by this, banks today are less concerned about your asset value as they are about your income capabilities. So you will have . . . whereas you might have tw o, three, four houses, Mr. Speaker , and you can go to the bank and say, I’ve got four houses and I’ve got my . . . I own my title deed, but I would like to have X -amount of money to get me over a specific project, and the answer is going to be no, because the banks are not interested. They do not want your house. They do not want the hassle of getting rid of your assets in order to satisfy their account. What they want to know is how much you earn and can you, from your earnings, satisfy this particular bil l. So these are the things that we have to start to look at as to what is going to be appropriate and how we can best protect the debtor in these proces ses of . . . or in these times of extortionate charges. I do not need to speak much more on this, Mr. Speaker . But, you know, when people . . . I think my honourable colleague made reference to when people borrow money and refuse to acknowledge that they have borrowed money, or purchase an item and r efuse to pay for it. It creates a challenge in terms of whether they are going to be capable of getting further credit extended to them at a time when it may be an absolute necessity. So we want to ensure that the education process around this entire structure is such that we can assist in creating a paradigm s hift of our mind- set so that people can understand. And Mr. Speaker , let me just close on this note. We spoke about the difficulty of landlords. And we recognise that there is a Landlord and Tenant Act [1974]. And you go through the, you know, harsh pr ocesses of going to court and the like. But those debts can still end up in the collecting agency once it comes out of the court. A magistrate may say, Yes, you still have to pay. You have shown up with your show cause summons, you have had the judgment go against you. But the landlord could still pass that debt on to a collecting agency in order to collect that money. Mr. Speaker , I say all that to say that I r emember the good old days. I remember my mother, when we were relatively young, renting rooms in our home in order to be able to make her ends meet and to be able to feed us and keep a roof over our heads. And those rooms rented on a weekly rate at £5 a week. But Mr. Speaker , if somebody did not pay, my mom was not . . . it was not beyond her . . . to hear her at three o’clock in the morning with a hammer, where she would go down, because the beds that they had in the rooms were metal frame beds. And it was not beyond my mom to be heard at 3:00 or 4:00 in the morning to go down and knock the frame apar t so that that person who was delinquent was not going to have the opportunity to sleep. And her attitude was if you are not paying your rent, you are not going to sleep here. We do not have that take the law into your own hands kind of environment. We have a situation now where that no longer obtains, and you have to go through all of these processes. But you know, Mr. Speaker , I have to say that to that extent when people are refusing—not unable, but when they are refus-ing—to pay, I kind of long for the old days. Thank you, Mr. Speaker .
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThank you, Honourable Member . 260 30 November 2018 Offici al Hansard Report Bermuda House of Assembly Does any other Honourable Member wish to speak? I recognise the Honourable Member from constituency 1 [sic]. Honourable Member Swan, you have the floor.
Mr. Hubert (Kim) E. SwanMr. Speaker , let me just say that the Debt Collection Act speaks, certainly, to a significant social issue that is very permeating in Bermuda. We know the stories about the recession and the casualties of that period. We have heard the Junior Finance Minister speak very passionately, as I …
Mr. Speaker , let me just say that the Debt Collection Act speaks, certainly, to a significant social issue that is very permeating in Bermuda. We know the stories about the recession and the casualties of that period. We have heard the Junior Finance Minister speak very passionately, as I have heard him on many occasions speak to this subject as it relates to persons who have fallen afoul. I certainly have had experiences with persons through being in the Legislature, constituents who have come . . . and persons from other constituencies who have come with stories as it relates to finding themselves in a bit of bother. Some have been connected with homes. And it is most unfortunate, particularly, I would say, within the last 12 years on the tail end of the boom period, and in the entry period of the recession, there was a bit of back draft of denial which existed in Bermuda that a recession even exis ted. Persons were looking to offload their properties and some persons were in business, some persons were trying to make sure that they were okay. The net result of some of those circumstances which the Honourable Junior Minister was referring to, as it relates to banking, is such that even as recent as 2018 there are persons who were able to obtain properties through lending practices connected . . . some with lending institutions, some with real tors, some with lawyers, whereby the property that they had was not sufficient. They went to momma or granny and got another little small cottage which was developed, the family owned through sweat equity and doing all the right things . . . saving for a r ainy day. And there are lending institutions out there today who are less . . . who are very dispassionate in the recovery of what they want to do. And there are many persons who find themselves seniors and not realising that their proper-ty is very vulnerable. I must confess that today’s generation . . . in my experience in dealing with some of these situa-tions, today’s generation are less responsible or r esponsive to family as in a bygone era, and that pr esents itself as a problem. The will to bring a piec e of legislation as such at this current time in the early stages of an admi nistration speaks to the importance that is placed on the protection of persons against predatory lending, which exists, which helped cause the great recession, both here and overs eas, bad policy in the business community and in the private sector, which persons do not hold as accountable as they might do if it was in the public domain. And so, as has been expressed, I too look t owards the future when practices that can . . . regul ations and Acts can be put forward for great protection. I am reminded, in my early years in the Legi slature, when Consumer Protection came to . . . as an Act. And it was after 1998 when I sat in Opposition. So I took the point that was made and as I look at the Act . . . we will go into Committee, but there is Part 2 which speaks to the Debt Collection Licensing A uthority. And I am sure the Minister of Finance who, I am sure, will be looking as prudently as possible and have control over . . . ultimately ov er all purse strings, could . . . he may, at his discretion, direct that Author ity to exist within a current body that exists within Government already. So it does not necessarily have to be another area. It certainly could be economies of scales practice, but certainly the need to start spelling these things out as they relate to the circumstances which are unique to Bermuda and to the practices that have become commonplace in Bermuda. And for those landlords out there in Bermuda, I have great empathy for them who . . . I know of a recent case, which I shall not mention specifically. But I do know of the pain that landlords who are unable to gain possession of properties and are left holding the bag of, you know, tens of thousands of dollars, which could easily add up after you do the math, you do the multiplication. And, you know, six or seven months times what the going rate for rent is substantive to, particularly, a senior who might now be land rich and cash poor, depending now on a fixed income to be able to survive in an economy that has outgrown and outpaced them. We all know of the percentage of persons who are in the country who come from overseas and the number of Bermudians, percentage wise, who are out of work or underpaid or finding it difficult to make ends meet. Let me say that those persons who come from overseas have somewhere to stay, are guaranteed that they are going to have health insurance. Many Bermudians are having to do without. And if they find themselves with an asset such as a property, and if there are practices that have become part of the culture of practice of lending institutions to be able to have the scope to be able to multiply that debt, it becomes a helpless and a hopeless circumstance for people who find themselves in that position. Long term —and when I speak of long term as I speak to the principle of this Bill —Mr. Speaker , I am not too afraid to embrace that there are some old- time
Bermuda House of Assembly traditions that have a place in modern society, you know. One of which is. I t is not what y ou make, it is what you save. And in order to save you have to learn how to be a little bit more frugal and discerning. And the aftermath of the last recession, which has lingered on in Bermuda for many varying reasons yet to be properly examined (I might add), that is an old practice that I think that this country can certainly take on board. And the persons that we need to be selling it to are not those of us who are on the way out, r espectfully speaking (and with longevity hopefully many of us will be ar ound to see it realised), but to the younger generation of our country —the three- , the four-, the five- , the six -, the seven- year-olds that are growing up on this, I gotta have it and I’ve gotta have it now, mentality that comes across in advertising. And it is pushed out there in their face and it is a . . . you know, it is a gotta- have- it-now-type of society, it is packaged and wrapped in that. Going back to some of those old- time princ iples as it relates to money management and the like would serve our people even better, Mr. Speaker . So Mr. Speaker , as we look at this I want to thank the Minister —it is his first Bill coming forward — and the Junior Minister who spoke as well. I know he does a lot of work behind the scenes, but I know he has always had a passion for those who find themselves in a category I often refer to through statistics, “the poor and the near poor.” And let me just say this in closing, Mr. Speaker: Let it not be forgotten that in this country, when that recession gripped us in 2008, mor e than a quarter of the country —families, household families —were in that cusp of poor, or near poor. Nearly 35 per cent. And the benchmark for poor or near poor in Bermuda was a household income of nearly $75,000—half of what an MP . . . well, I would say 60 per cent of what an MP earns, the equivalent of an MP’s salary. I say that respectfully because in Bermuda we do not examine what persons are taking home in our country, whether or not they be . . . where they might be wor king in the station of life in this country. So Mr. Speaker , as we speak to this Debt Collection and other Bills or Amendment Acts that might have to come in the same spirit, let us not forget the system that exists in Bermuda that has been accepted for far too long. Thank you, Mr. Spe aker.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThank you, Honourable Member . Does any other Honourable Member wish to speak? No other Member. Minister? Hon. Walter H. Roban: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker . And I thank all the contributors today to this debate. I wish to thank the Opposition for what appears to be their …
Thank you, Honourable Member . Does any other Honourable Member wish to speak? No other Member. Minister? Hon. Walter H. Roban: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker . And I thank all the contributors today to this debate. I wish to thank the Opposition for what appears to be their support generally for the purpose of the Bill. I have had some dialogue with the spokesperson on the Opposition side and I think we have actually cleared up some details, but I am expecting, certainly, to give f urther clarification when we go to Committee. But I would like to address some of the questions that were put by different Members. And I would like to kind of start where I began, Mr. Speaker . At the very end of my Statement I said that this Bill does not absolve the debtor from his or her obligations to repay their debt. And that is i mportant. I just want to re- establish that point so that people know that this is not a Bill to absolve them of paying their debt. And I would like to also refer back to the five key points that I made during my statement on page 4 (for those who have a copy) where I said: “Mr. Speaker , the proposed Bill provides five i mportant components: (1) Establishing a Government Regulatory Licensing Authority for the debt collection industry.” Right now, Mr. Speaker , there is no regulatory or governmental supervision of debt collection agencies and their practices. It is the wild, Wild West.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerMm-hmm. Hon. Walter H. Roban: And that is what it is. And we have heard some witness today of the exorbitant practices which they exercise. Now, I am not suggesting that these are m alevolent organisations. What I am suggesting is that without the appropriate legislative framework there have been …
Mm-hmm.
Hon. Walter H. Roban: And that is what it is. And we have heard some witness today of the exorbitant practices which they exercise. Now, I am not suggesting that these are m alevolent organisations. What I am suggesting is that without the appropriate legislative framework there have been certain excessive practices which have not been helpful to the community and those who are subject to debt collection. So we are going to be creating a [Debt Collection] Licensing Authority so that those who are going to be engaged in these practices are governed by a body of law. “2. Prohibiti ng unfair debt collection practices.” The law tells you what those practices that are unfair are so that everybody, including those who are practising as debt collection agencies or are doing some debt collection activity knows what is unfair, what is cons idered to be unfair. So, it is not going to be arbitrarily applied. The law helps to clarify what is consi dered to be unfair in Part 4. “3. Requiring financial transparency of contractual penalty fees and limits, interest rates, admi nistration fees and commission fees.” Now, I think part of the discussion that has been here today is . . . and there has been some r eflection. The Honourable Junior Minister from consti tuency 6, and others, have related . . . but certainly the Honourable Junior Minister gave some clear sort of reality around what some have experienced in this. 262 30 November 2018 Offici al Hansard Report
Bermuda House of Assembly And there have been practices of which we have found, like exorbitant amounts of fees and commi ssions paid, added onto a debt that itself is finite. But then the fees and commissions and administration [costs] go out the roof, and you may end up finding yourself not only for debt collections processed but also in court with something that is asking you to pay something like 100 per cent more than you actually originally owed. Now, the only way to ensure that this does not, that people are not exposed to that, is like a number of things, Mr. Speaker . One is to have transparency, financial transparency, and clear contractual arrangements established around what can be done so that people k now when they go into an obligation, ultimately what they will be responsible for even if they do not fulfil the obligation. But, after all is said and done, this is where the transparency comes in. Let us just say you find yourself in a situation where y ou are in front of a debt collector. The debt collector also has a responsibility to be transparent and accountable on what they have been contracted to collect. So, they have to hold any monies in a proper trust account. They have to have a proper accounting system where they can say, Well, because we heard a lot about Ms. Smith by some people today, that Ms. Smith wants her debt collected . . . Well, Ms. Smith came to said agency to collect from young or not-so-young Mr. Jones a certain amount and that maybe Mr. Jones, with the debt collection, agrees to a payment plan over a period of time, that the money that Mr. Jones pays to the agency is properly ac-counted for, properly recorded and ultimately when that debt is satisfied there is a record and that Mr. Jones can go and look at, and the [Debt Collection] Licensing Authority can look at, that if there is an appeal a part of it . . . everybody can look at that information and actually see it is accurate. And if it is not accurate, there is a recourse process for that. So, it requires transparency on both sides. And that is a clear understanding of what the agreement was to pay or not pay and that the persons knew that if they did not pay what they may have to incur if they do not, and if there are limits t o the interest that they might have to incur. So, that is number three. That is what we are doing. “4. Establishing a complaint procedure investigation and inspection powers.” Well, if you are going to license a body, there needs to be a process where they can be expected to know that they are doing things properly, that the [Debt Collection] Licensing Authority have the power of investigation in the situations that are brought to their attention. And that there is a complaint proc edure, not only for someone who feels they are being wrongly dealt with around a debt, but also even those who have been contracted to collect it as well. So, what if something happens in the process that is not fair to either side? There is a complaint pr ocess and an adjudication process within that [so it] can be dealt with. And, of course, there is a right of appeal —natural justice if you want to call it that. Cr eating offences which, clearly, if things are not done right, there should be accountability and repercussions for that, handled in the appropriate process, Mr. Speaker . And that is the fifth point —right of appeal. That is why there is a tribunal being set up at the end of all of that so that people in the process who find something did not go right here, I do not believ e the information that has been recorded to me is right . This is what my receipts say, that is what his say. I did not like how I was treated in this whole process . They have a right of appeal to get some adjudication. It does not remove the right of appeal to a court in this process, but that is built into the legisl ation. And as I attempted to explain to the Honourable Member who sits in constituency 30, who I had an opportunity to answer some questions, we are creating a space of supervision which is absent now. It is sort of an absent, I do not want to say “black hole,” because that has all types of connotations. But I am talking about there is a gap there, legally, right now, today, at this moment, that people in this country who may find themselves as a result of the recession, as a result of . . . as I outlined in my statement, situations that they did not bring upon themselves. But yes, there are those who we have to remember who act ually wilfully have not paid their debts, and businesses and persons have a right to pursue that obligation, okay, or what is owed to them. But then we have the people who, because of a health crisis, because of a situation which they did not bring on themselves, find themselves in financial challenges. They are injured, they are sick, they cannot work. If they cannot work, they may be dismissed from that job. If they are dismissed from that job, they have no health coverage. If they have no health cov-erage, they incur costs for trying to maintain their care—the money of w hich they . . . and they have also the obligations they already have. They are pushed into a debtor situation. How do we protect those people? But also, how do we ensure that the process that governs how that debt may be satisfied in a fair and equitable way . . . we have a body, we have a piece of legislation, we have an agency, we have a [Debt Collection] Licensing Authority, we have a tribunal, we have the Consumer Affairs agency, which actually will be taking on this actual job, not creating a new body or a new bus iness or a new government department. They are going to absorb this within their body. And I would like to acknowledge certainly the Permanent Secretary for Home Affairs, but also Ms. Karen Marshall who is running that agency, and the attorneys from Chambers who advised me very well
Bermuda House of Assembly and assisted in my preparation for this. Ms. Marshall is the one out there who has managed this online pr ocess from day one, but also is interacting out in the community around these issues. Right? The Consumer A ffairs department will be the one which provides the support for the [Debt Collec-tion] Licensing Authority and for the appeals process. And essentially like an advocate for all who are i nvolved in the debt collection process, but also with a level of enfor cement as well. So, I just wanted to preface some of that and I will just go through some of the questions that were [asked] because I think we need to get on with this discussion and go right to our . . . right into Commi ttee. Was the Bermuda Credit As sociation involved in consultation? The answer is yes. And if anyone is suggesting otherwise, I really do not think that is acc urate because there is no way we could have, you know, gone into this process without consulting with all those who are involved with the process. A question was asked about a particular lawyer who has a quite robust and well -known debt collection business. The answer is yes, [he] was consul ted. The licensing process, does each individual employee need a licence? The answer is no. I f they work for a credit association or a credit agency, the agency will have the licence and they will act under that licence. Will a law firm require a licence? Well, I need to answer that in kind of a few parts, Mr. Speaker, because there are two issues here. This is a law firm that may be acting as, or has, a debt collection bus iness (like the said law firm that was mentioned by one of the Honourable Member s, or his name was mentioned, for his practise as a debt collection business), yes. Now, there are some . . . and I am kind of answering a couple of different questions that were put. There are exemptions. So, a law firm would enter into one of these exemptions and the law firm would be exempted from the Act if the lawyers who are acting in connection with a judicial enforcement of a debt serves or attempts to serve legal process of the debtor with the intent of either collection, the payment due to the person served to make that payment —they are exempted. So, if they are carrying out a judgment r elated to a debt which is put down by the court, no. But if they have a debt collection business, yes. And certainly, if you are collecting your own debt, you are also handled differently. But you are still required to follow the conduct and behaviour pr escrib ed by this Act and not be able to prescribe unfair practises if you are collecting even your own debt. So, I believe that answers part of that question, Mr. Speaker . There are some other questions. Will the legislation cover all debt? Well, there is a def inition that is being refined around that and the definition of debt does not put a limit on the debt to which the Act applies to. So, perhaps how we define debt is not necessarily precise, but it serves as a general definition that will deal with types of debt that arise that will come under the Act. I think perhaps you can have, people can have different little definitions of what debt might be, but the Act prescribes a definition, and that can be refined if need be going forward, if need be. There was another question concerning creditors will not be . . . about creditors needing to be l icensed. Creditors will not need to be licensed, but each debt collection entity will be required to get a licence. So, there is no requirement for a creditor. If you provide credit, no, you do not get licensed under this Act.
[Inaudible interjections]
Hon. Walter H. Roban: It is a contracted service, ty pically, when you provide credit. There was a question about education. Consumer Affairs offers advice on debt and w ill encourage the persons who wish to gain credit to take contract, and also legal advice, and make sure that they are not being harmed by any significant contract. I think the, if I can say, trend here is to make sure that everybody knows what terms they are entering into when they have an obligation, so they know not only, as I think I have said already, what they are contracting to when they enter an obligation, but if you do not pay the obligation, you also know what you will be subjected to. It will need to make sure people understand that , and there is going to be, obviously out of this . . . and this is a commitment that the Minister has made to have a robust public education process around this. And, frankly, this is not a public education process t hat has a beginning or an end, Mr. Speaker . It will have to be ongoing, because as people become more involved and engaged in financial transactions, we all need to know how to handle debt and the responsibilities we have. So, this is not going to somehow begin- and-end, it is going to be ongoing. And we are going to be doing a number of things to advance public education around the issues of debt collection and the responsibilities of people. As I said earlier, Mr. Speaker, people do need to pay their debts. And this law does not absolve them from that. Some other questions came up about the Consumer Affairs Board and what they will be tasked with. The Consumer Affairs Board is the debt collection tribunal as laid out in Part 7. So, again, nobody is going to be creating a new department for this. The activities around what this Act is creating are going to be done from within the department as it exists, and even the persons who are on the Board currently have been a part of the process of education and building the knowledge base to actually carry out these r e264 30 November 2018 Offici al Hansard Report
Bermuda House of Assembly sponsibilities when this Bill finally is agreed by the Legislature. There were some comments raised about landlords and what a landlord might have to deal with if they are confronted with somebody who does not pay their debt and if they are not savvy, [and] what they may have to deal with as it relates to this legisl ation. Landlords are not debt collectors. So they are not included under this Act, Mr. Speaker . They still have the courts to address any obligations that they feel they are entitled to receive and, so, this Act does not take away that right that they have. And there is, of course, a Landlord and Tenant Act which would govern their relationship that they have with a tenant if they find themselves not . . . where someone has not met the obligation. There were also some questions around why we are creating a separate Act when the Consumer Affairs Act should have been used to do this and thus, it looks like we are creating a brand- new depart ment. Well, that was explored, Mr. Speaker, putting the debt collection practices under the Consumer Protection Act 1999. But it was clear that there was a need to regulate the debt collectors. So, that is why this Act is the way it is. It is a standalone Act to govern the practices and processes of debt collectors. I think I have spoken to the issue of sharing information to some degree, but that is governed un-der section 16 of the Act. It is illegal to share any i nformation, because there was a concern about priv acy. And one thing that you can be assured of, Mr. Speaker, is that the days where we saw the cancelled cheques on the back of the board behind the cash register are gone, because that in itself has brought certain implications on people who . . . that cheque may be sitting up there for 10 years, and they paid the debt 10 years ago. So, that is going to stop because information on who owes who money now has to be properly handled.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerMinister, I am trying to see how long of a list you have there. Hon. Walter H. Roban: No, I am actually . . . that was my last one, Mr. Speaker.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerOh, okay. Hon. Walter H. Roban: So, if that is satisfied, Mr. Speaker, I now move that the Bill be committed.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThank you, Minister. W e will now move into Committee and I call on the Deputy. House in Committee at 4:17 pm COMMITTEE ON BILL [Hon. Derrick V. Burgess, Sr., Chairman] DEBT COLLECTION ACT 2018
The ChairmanChairmanI feel like we had this debate already, the Committee debate, but let us officially start the Committee debate. Honourable Members, we are now in Commi ttee of the whole [House] for further consideration of the Bill entitled the Debt Collection Act 2018 . Minister, you have the floor. Hon. …
I feel like we had this debate already, the Committee debate, but let us officially start the Committee debate. Honourable Members, we are now in Commi ttee of the whole [House] for further consideration of the Bill entitled the Debt Collection Act 2018 . Minister, you have the floor.
Hon. Walter H. Roban: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would request that we move clauses 1 through 15.
The ChairmanChairman[Clauses] 1 through 15? Hon. Walter H. Roban: Yes, if that is agreeable to the Hous e.
The ChairmanChairmanAny objections to moving clauses 1 through 15? Continue, Minister. Hon. Walter H. Roban: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Bill provides for the Debt Collection Licensing Authority to regulate debt collectors. Under Part 2 the Bill provides for the appointment of a Debt Collection Officer, who is to have ultimate …
Any objections to moving clauses 1 through 15? Continue, Minister.
Hon. Walter H. Roban: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Bill provides for the Debt Collection Licensing Authority to regulate debt collectors. Under Part 2 the Bill provides for the appointment of a Debt Collection Officer, who is to have ultimate responsibi lity for the Authority. Part 3 of the Bill outlines the requirements for licensing a debt collector and for renewal of a licence. Part 4 of the Bill sets out actions considered under the Bill as unfair debt collection practices. Part 5 of the Bill provides the right to debtors to lodge complaints with the Authority against debt collectors. Under that Part the Authority is given power to inspect records and premises of lic ensed debt collectors and conduct i nvestigations in that respect. Part 6 of the Bill provides both the Authority and the Officer the power to order a debt collector to cease unfair debt collection practices and require compliance with such an order. The M inister can also request investigations on his own accord—his or her accord. Both debt collectors and debtors will have a right to appeal against decisions of the Authority to the newly established Debt Collection Tribunal under Part 7 of the Bill. Part 8 outlines offences relating to unfair debt collection practises, furnishing incorrect information in applications, improper conduct by debt collectors, and obstructing investigations of the Authority or Officer. Part 9 provides miscellaneous provisions. Clause 1 is the citation of the Bill. Clause 2 provides for the interpretation section for the Bill.
Bermuda House of Assembly Clause 3 provides the application provision for the Bill. The Bill shall not apply to the Provost Marshal General or any bailiff appointed under the Provost Marshal General Act 1965, any liquidator, receiver or trustee acting under the Companies Act 1981, or any public officer collecting, requesting or demanding payment of debts owed to the Government of Berm uda. Clause 4 establishes the Debt Collection Licensing Authority, which will be responsible for regulating debt collectors. Clause 5 provides for the functions of the A uthority, which include registration of debt collectors, maintaining a register of debt collectors, prescribing the requirements to qualif y as a debt collector, setting out codes of professional conduct, and other standards, methods and procedures to be applied by debt collectors. Clause 6 appoints a public officer as a Debt Collection Officer, who shall be responsible for the administration and management of the Authority. The Minister is empowered to appoint the Officer as an inspector, to be responsible for the enforcement of this Bill. Clause 7 prohibits any person to carry on debt collection services unless such person is licensed under the Bill. A person guilty of this offence on summary conviction is liable to a fine of $60,000 [sic] or imprisonment for one year or to both; on conviction on indictment, a person is liable to a fine of $100,000 or imprisoned for five years or to both. Clause 8 outlines the application of a debt collection licence. An application for a licence, the form of which will be outlined in regulations, is to be accompanied by supporting documentation that i ncludes, but is not limited to: copies of means of ident ification for individuals, certificates of incorporation of a company, certificates of formation for a limited liability company or certificates of registration for a limited partnership. Additional information to be provided i ncludes a debt collection business plan, character references, financial accounts, evidence of a trust account and a statement indicating that Government fees and charges are up to date. Clause 9 provides for the grant and refusal of an application for a licence. The Authority, upon r eceipt of the application, supporting documents and payment of the fee, may grant a licence if satisfied that the applicant is a “fit and proper” person. The debt collection licence may be subject to conditions determined by the Authority. Clause 10 provides that debt collection l icences are to be issued or renewed for not more than 24 months. Clause 11 provides the power for the Author ity to revoke any debt collection licence, subject to the Authority complying with the requirements for the debt collector’s r ight to be heard under clause 27. Clause 12 provides for a register of debt collectors to be kept. The register will be available for inspection on the payment of a fee of $5.00. Clause 13 provides for the form, display and registration of licences. Debt c ollection licences are to be kept on display at the registered office or principal place of business at all times. Clause 14 provides a requirement for the payment of an annual licence fee by licensed debt collectors. Clause 15 requires debt collectors to open and maintain a client trust account for holding monies received for payments of debt. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The ChairmanChairmanAny further speakers? The Chair recognises the Honourable Member, the Deputy Opposition Leader Leah Scott. Ms. Scott, you have the floor.
Ms. Leah K. ScottThank you Mr. Chairman. So, recognising that this is a new piece of legislation, I know that at some point in time there may be some amendments —the things that I am kind of bringing to the front. I am not asking for any floor amendments, but just for consideration …
Thank you Mr. Chairman. So, recognising that this is a new piece of legislation, I know that at some point in time there may be some amendments —the things that I am kind of bringing to the front. I am not asking for any floor amendments, but just for consideration in the future. So, on page 3, under the definition “debt collection business,” perhaps the definition could be ex-panded so that it reads a debt collection business is a collection agency, a debt buyer, a lawy er and any other person who collects debts on behalf of another person, or on the behalf of a person who has purchased a debt in arrears. On page 5, Part 2, section 4(2), where it says that the Debt Collection Officer . . . that there is going to be a public officer and then there is going to be such number of public officers. And I know that this is a new entity and you probably do not have a determined number at the moment. But what do you think you would start out with just in terms of getting the agency established? The Deputy Officer and maybe two people? And has there been consideration given as to what the remuneration would be for those individuals? [Crosstalk]
Ms. Leah K. ScottOh, okay. On page 7, clause 2(a) and (b) [sic]. So, when I first looked at the fines, I thought that they were really exorbitant — [Inaudible interjection]
An Hon. Member An Hon. MemberYou said page 7. 266 30 November 2018 Offici al Hansard Report Bermuda House of Assembly Ms. Leah K. Scott: Page 7, clause . . .
An Hon. Member An Hon. Member[Clause] 8(2)?
Ms. Leah K. ScottClause 7(2), sorry . . . [clause] 7(2)(a) and (b). So, I thought they were really kind of exorbitant, but then as I started to do my research, like in Texas there was a guy who was a debt collector (he was a lawyer) who was just recently charged $25 …
Clause 7(2), sorry . . . [clause] 7(2)(a) and (b). So, I thought they were really kind of exorbitant, but then as I started to do my research, like in Texas there was a guy who was a debt collector (he was a lawyer) who was just recently charged $25 mi llion in civil penalties and $560,000 for legal fees. So, I guess those are kind of reasonable. My question is, Is it anticipated or envisioned that a debtor could also take a debt agency to court for physical distress? Could they recover from the debt collector any expense for medical bills, insurance, lost wages, psychological distress or any injunctive relief? Has that been anticipated, and would that be available to a debtor from a debt collector? On page 7, [clause] 8(f) . . . sorry, 8(2)(f), where it says that an individual who has been declared . . . sorry, who has been a director of a company that has been declared insolvent cannot make an application for a licence. In the case where a director actually does not cause the insolvency but just happens to be a part of a company that has insolvency, is there any scope for an exemption or, you know, is there any room for any kind of rationale that would allow a person to be a director? Or is it just a flat, just because you wer e a part of a company that was insolvent, or will there be any sort of exemptions available? And then on clause 8[2](g), a statement indicating that the applicant has not been convicted of a financial crime or convicted of an offence of which violence, di shonesty, extortion or intimidation is an element. So, would you not want a person who is convicted of a crime, period? Or is it only financial crimes that will prohibit it? Just asking a question. [Clause] 8[2](h), “statements from three persons who” . . . you need to insert the word “are” there. That is missing. And who are “good standing members of the community . . . .” Now a lot of times, “good standing member” is defined as a person who is — [Inaudible interjection]
Ms. Leah K. ScottPage 7, clause 8[2](g) . . . sorry 8[2](h). So, you might want to consider what a definition of a “good standing member” is, because I am sure all of our definitions will be different. So, you know, a person that is a JP [ Justice of the Peace] or …
Page 7, clause 8[2](g) . . . sorry 8[2](h). So, you might want to consider what a definition of a “good standing member” is, because I am sure all of our definitions will be different. So, you know, a person that is a JP [ Justice of the Peace] or a person that has a pr ofessional designation such as a lawyer or something, you might want to clarify that because that is kind of like how long is a piece of string question. On page 9, [clause] 11, which deals with the revocation of licence. So, there is only a discussion about the revocation of a licence. However, in [clause] 33, there is reference to a restriction of a l icence. So, is there the ability to restrict a licence or does it go straight to revocation? And, if there is a r estriction, what are the provisions for a restricted l icence? [Inaudible interjection]
Ms. Leah K. ScottOkay, sure. Then on page 10, [clause] 14(2) . . . and I am sure you are probably going to think that this is obv ious, but it says for each week or part of a week that a debt collector fails to comply with a requirement i mposed on …
Okay, sure. Then on page 10, [clause] 14(2) . . . and I am sure you are probably going to think that this is obv ious, but it says for each week or part of a week that a debt collector fails to comply with a requirement i mposed on it by subsection (1), it shall be liable to a civil penalty not exceeding $1,000. So, is that $1,000 in the aggregate? Is that $1,000 for each week or part of a week? Or . . . I think that this might need to be clar ified. It may be obvious to others, but it is not obvious to me. And then in [clause] 15(2), under trust accounts, it says that the money deposited in terms of subsection (1) shall be paid within a reasonable time . . . and I guess, again, what is “reasonable”? B ecause reasonable is a term that means different things to different people. So, you—
[Inaudible interjection]
Ms. Leah K. ScottSorry, this is on page 10, clause 15(2). Sorry, this is on page 10, clause 15(2). So, you might want to . . . bec ause people will tend to, you know, abuse “reasonable.” So, you might want to just tighten that up. And then in [clause] 15(6)(b), it says, …
Sorry, this is on page 10, clause 15(2). Sorry, this is on page 10, clause 15(2). So, you might want to . . . bec ause people will tend to, you know, abuse “reasonable.” So, you might want to just tighten that up. And then in [clause] 15(6)(b), it says, “ provide to the Authority a copy of his audited annual financial statement ” but there is no filing date. And if you are going to . . . I would suggest that because there is the 31 st of March date that the fee has to be paid, that you do set a date for the filings so that they are just not . . . it is not willy -nilly. On page 11—
An Hon. Member An Hon. MemberThat is it. The Chai rman: That is it.
The ChairmanChairmanAny further speakers? The Chair recognises the Honourable Pat Gordon- Pamplin. Mrs. Gordon[ -Pamplin], you have . . . Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I am just speaking to page 5 under the Debt Collection Licensing Authority under Bermuda House of Assembly clause 4 …
Any further speakers? The Chair recognises the Honourable Pat Gordon- Pamplin. Mrs. Gordon[ -Pamplin], you have . . .
Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I am just speaking to page 5 under the Debt Collection Licensing Authority under
Bermuda House of Assembly clause 4 with the establishment of the Authority to regulate debt collectors. We asked the question when we were in the regular debate as to the streamlining that we heard about earlier today, whether that function can be absorbed by the Consumer Protection Agency in terms of the regulation. This is an Authority that is regulating . . . it is kind of, it is an administrative oversight. And the question is, Is it possible to allow an existing agency (which does an exceptionally good job with what they do) to be commissioned to do this particular function as to the oversight role as opposed to creating a new bureaucracy? And it would also be able to save money. And this, to my mind—
The ChairmanChairmanWe are in Committee now. Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Yes, I know.
The ChairmanChairmanAsk the question. Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Yes, I know. That was a question. And also the question would also be, If that is permitted, if that is able to be permitted, the Debt Collection Agency being part of the Consumer Affairs, whether this could be an ideal opportunity …
Ask the question.
Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Yes, I know. That was a question. And also the question would also be, If that is permitted, if that is able to be permitted, the Debt Collection Agency being part of the Consumer Affairs, whether this could be an ideal opportunity for the reward for going above and beyond that we heard about this morning.
The ChairmanChairmanOkay. Any further speakers? Minister, you have the floor. Hon. Walter H. Roban: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am going to take that most of the questions put by the honourable, the first spokesman, were more so advis ory, unless you want exact answers on some of them right now. …
Okay. Any further speakers? Minister, you have the floor.
Hon. Walter H. Roban: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am going to take that most of the questions put by the honourable, the first spokesman, were more so advis ory, unless you want exact answers on some of them right now. But you seemed to say you were not asking for changes now, but that they could be taken on in consideration. I am happy to do that.
The ChairmanChairmanHold on, one second. I have to recognise you. [Laughter]
The ChairmanChairmanThe Chair recognises the Deputy Leader of the Opposition, Ms. Leah Scott.
Ms. Leah K. ScottThank you, Mr. Chairman. I am happy to have an offline discussion about this. As I said, I am not looking for any amend-ments, so we do not have to go through this right now. It is just as long as we do have a point where we can sit …
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am happy to have an offline discussion about this. As I said, I am not looking for any amend-ments, so we do not have to go through this right now. It is just as long as we do have a point where we can sit down and address them because I think that they are . . . well, I think they are valid points. But I do not want to take up time. We can talk about it later.
The ChairmanChairmanMinister. Hon. Walter H. Roban: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have noted the advisory comments from the Honourable Member and I will happily have that di scussion at the appropriate time. I do have a few answers, which I will go through. The question was about criminal compens ation. It …
Minister.
Hon. Walter H. Roban: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have noted the advisory comments from the Honourable Member and I will happily have that di scussion at the appropriate time. I do have a few answers, which I will go through. The question was about criminal compens ation. It is not covered under this particular Act. There was a question about an application. There are going to be a number of regulatory prov isions that are going to arise beyond the transitory period, and the application will be covered in the regul ations as we roll them out. And there will be public notice of those regulations. Restrictions on licence will be covered in regulations. The $1,000 penalty is for each week and “reasonable” is a fact of law which will be the norm in the industry. So, I guess the common law definition of what “reasonable” means is what applies. And, thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The ChairmanChairmanAny further speakers on clauses 1 through 15? The Chair recognises the Honourable Ms. [Gordon- ]Pamplin. Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Thanks. The Honourable M inister did not answer my question, so I was just wondering if he could do that. And, also, while he is doing that, if he …
Any further speakers on clauses 1 through 15? The Chair recognises the Honourable Ms. [Gordon- ]Pamplin. Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Thanks. The Honourable M inister did not answer my question, so I was just wondering if he could do that. And, also, while he is doing that, if he can give some thought on page . . . with respect to the trust accounts. I know that there is legislation guiding trust accounts. But will this trust account be required to be a specific escrow account for the purposes of depositing the funds and then withdrawing therefrom as and when it is appropriate to pay to the creditor?
The ChairmanChairmanMinister. Hon. Walter H. Roban: Mr. Chairman, I do recognise that I did not answer the first question of the Honour able Member . And the [answer] to her query is yes. There is no new department that is going to be de-vised for the purposes of executing this legislation. …
Minister. Hon. Walter H. Roban: Mr. Chairman, I do recognise that I did not answer the first question of the Honour able Member . And the [answer] to her query is yes. There is no new department that is going to be de-vised for the purposes of executing this legislation. It will all be done from within the existing Agency and the officers in this Agency are going to . . . and they have already begun that process of preparation, to be the defined persons of authority under the legislation. So, no new department, no new agency. And your other question was pertaining to trust accounts. Yes, the trust accounts is specific . . . so that any money that is received in the satisfaction of debt can be appropriately handled and managed legally, and when it is paid out there is a record of paying in and paying out in a lawful and transparent 268 30 November 2018 Offici al Hansard Report
Bermuda House of Assembly way. So, that is what . . . the trust account is principally to make s ure that no firm bundles up the money they collect to, like, pay out with their own operating account. So, that trust account sits for that purpose, principally.
The ChairmanChairmanThe Chair recognises the Honourable Member Mrs. [Gordon- ]Pamplin. Hon. Patric ia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, acknowledging that there will be no comingling of funds, the question now begs that when the agency collects money, given that they are entitled to an “X” per cent, …
The Chair recognises the Honourable Member Mrs. [Gordon- ]Pamplin. Hon. Patric ia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, acknowledging that there will be no comingling of funds, the question now begs that when the agency collects money, given that they are entitled to an “X” per cent, 20 per cent, commission for doing the duty of the collecting, does that money have to go into the escrow account and then come out when they pay out? Or does that money, does the net amount, the 80 per cent, go into the trust account and the 20 per cent goes into the personal account, or the private accounts of the entity of the debt collection agency?
The ChairmanChairmanMinister. Hon. Walter H. Roban: Mr. Chairman, if I may . . . thank you for the question, but I think, as you, being an accountant, would know this is an accounting function, obviously. But the request of the [Debt Collection] Licensing Authority to have accurate reporting will ensure that …
Minister. Hon. Walter H. Roban: Mr. Chairman, if I may . . . thank you for the question, but I think, as you, being an accountant, would know this is an accounting function, obviously. But the request of the [Debt Collection] Licensing Authority to have accurate reporting will ensure that this is done because we do have to . . . it is very clear in what is being charged for, I would say, like an administration for like commissions, and any other fees will have to be clearly distinguished and the ingoing and outgoings of those monies will, upon r equest of the Authority, will have to be clearly outlined in their accounting. So, but . . . okay. But these are accounting functi ons. I think you understand that.
Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Yes, I do.
Hon. Walter H. Roban: And, so, there will be . . . as per the request of the Authority, they will have to ac-count for showing that.
The ChairmanChairmanAny further speakers on claus es 1 through 15? Minister, can you move clauses 1 through 15? Hon. Walter H. Roban: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I wish to move [clauses] 1 through 15 as printed.
The ChairmanChairmanIt has been moved that clauses 1 through 15 be approved as printed. Any object ions to that? There appear to be none. Approved. [Motion carried: Clauses 1 through 15 passed.]
The ChairmanChairmanMinister. Hon. Walter H. Roban: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I will move on. Clause 16 outlines the unfair debt collection practices —
The ChairmanChairmanWhich . . . what? Hon. Walter H. Roban: I am sorry.
The ChairmanChairmanYes. Hon. Walter H. Roban: Ah—
The ChairmanChairmanIt is all right. Hon. Walter H. Roban: My apologies, Mr. Chairman.
The ChairmanChairmanThat is okay. Hon. Walter H. Roban: My enthusiasm to get the job done. I am jumping over processes. I would like to move Part 4, which is clauses 16 through to, I would ask, clause 36.
The ChairmanChairmanAny objections to moving clauses 16 through 36? There appear to be none. Continue. Hon. Walter H. Ro ban: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Clause 16 outlines the unfair debt collection practices relating to harassment or abuse. Clause 17 outlines the unfair debt collection practices relating to false or …
Any objections to moving clauses 16 through 36? There appear to be none. Continue. Hon. Walter H. Ro ban: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Clause 16 outlines the unfair debt collection practices relating to harassment or abuse. Clause 17 outlines the unfair debt collection practices relating to false or misleading represent ations. Clause 18 outlines the unfair debt collection practice relating to unfair practices. Clause 19 provides for requirements relating to debt collection fees and charges. Clause 20 requires debt collectors to provide validation of details of a debt. Clause 21 requires debt collect ors to apply payment, when multiple debts are due, to a particular debt in accordance with the debtor’s instructions. Clause 22 provides for requirements relating to credit reporting agencies. Clause 23 provides for the ability of a debtor to lodge a compl aint with the Authority against an unfair debt collection practice. Clause 24 provides for the Officer to inspect records of debt collectors that are relevant to the business of the debt collectors.
Bermuda House of Assembly Clause 25 provides for the Officer or inspectors to conduct investigations of suspected contraventions of the provisions of the Bill. Clause 26 provides the power under a warrant of the court for a police officer and inspector to enter premises and seize documents where a person has failed to comply with a notice served on him or her or if there is reasonable cause to suspect the complet eness of information provided or that the notice served would not be complied with. Clause 27 provides for the procedure to be followed by the Authority when revoking a licenc e under clause 11 in order to give the debt collector the right to be heard. Clause 28 provides the power for the Officer to issue an order to a debt collector to cease unfair debt collection practices. Clause 29 provides the power for the Officer to iss ue an order to immediately comply with actions meant to protect a debtor and outlines the procedure that will be followed in issuing that order. Clause 30 provides for the debt collector to enter into written assurance of voluntary compliance with an order for immediate compliance to prevent unfair debt collection practices under clause 29. Clause 31 constitutes the Tribunal and sets out matters relating to the appointment of a panel of members and includes the appointment and qualific ations of the chairm an and deputy chairman. Clause 32 provides for the determination of appeals and sets out the powers of the Tribunal in relation to adjudicating decisions made by the Author ity. Clause 33 provides for the right of appeal of a debt collector against a deci sion of the Authority in relation to its licence and sets out the powers of the Tribunal to suspend or cancel the decision or to i mpose a civil penalty. Clause 34 provides for the right of debtors to appeal against decisions of the Authority in relation t o complaints lodged under clause 23. Clause 35 outlines the Tribunal’s powers in relation to costs, procedure of hearings, and the taking of evidence. Clause 36 grants a [debt] collector or debtor the power to appeal a Tribunal decision to the S upreme Court. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The ChairmanChairmanThank you, Minister. Any further speakers to clauses 16 through 36? The Chair recognises the Honourable Deputy Leader of the Opposition, Leah Scott. You have the floor.
Ms. Leah K. ScottThank you, Mr. Chai rman . And, Mr. Chairman, just in continuing, I am happy to have an offline discussion about any com-ments that I have. The other thing, Mr. Chairman, is that my comments only go up to section 31, so after that, we can move all the rest …
Thank you, Mr. Chai rman . And, Mr. Chairman, just in continuing, I am happy to have an offline discussion about any com-ments that I have. The other thing, Mr. Chairman, is that my comments only go up to section 31, so after that, we can move all the rest of the clauses, if nobody else is going to speak. Okay?
Ms. Leah K. ScottSo, on page 11, Part 4, Unfair Debt Collection Practices. So, I note in clause 16(2)(b) it identifies threatening to use any means to spread false information concerning the credi tworthiness of a debtor. But can there also be consideration given to you cannot contact a debtor through email, WhatsApp, …
So, on page 11, Part 4, Unfair Debt Collection Practices. So, I note in clause 16(2)(b) it identifies threatening to use any means to spread false information concerning the credi tworthiness of a debtor. But can there also be consideration given to you cannot contact a debtor through email, WhatsApp, or through any other means? Because now there are so many different ways that you can contact a person. So, you know, can we widen that definition to include that? On page 13, [clause] 18, Unfair practices. Clause [18](2) —now, these two I actually would like an explanation for, because I just do not understand what they mean. So, [clause] 18 (2)(e), causing charges to be made to any person for communic ations by concealment of the true purpose of the communication. I am not understanding what the charges are. And then [clause] 18(2)(g), communicating with a debtor by postcard regarding a debt . I am not sure what that means. And those are the only two that I would like an answer for now. And then on page 14, [clause] 20(1)(c), where the debtor has to be provided with a statement and after receipt of the notice, if the debtor disputes the validity of the debt, the debt will be assumed by the debt collector to be valid. What happens in the case where somebody might not . . . oh, sorry, my question is, Will they be served by process server so that the debt collection agency knows that the person got the notice? Because what do you do if you have a person that is not on the Island, and it may exceed that 30day period. Then what happens?
[Inaudible interjections]
Ms. Leah K. ScottOh, sorry. Page 14, clause 20, and then clause 20[1](c). So, it is presuming that the debtor is going to receive the notice. So, will notice be served by process server or registered letter or some other way of evidencing that the person has gotten the notice, because there are …
Oh, sorry. Page 14, clause 20, and then clause 20[1](c). So, it is presuming that the debtor is going to receive the notice. So, will notice be served by process server or registered letter or some other way of evidencing that the person has gotten the notice, because there are times when, you know, the creditor . . . the debtor may . . . the debt agency may have an address where somebody does not live or the person might be off the Island. And so, how do you protect both the agency (in terms of issuing the stat ement) and then the person who may or may not have received it? So, what is going to be put in place to e nsure that they . . . or to verify that they have received it? And then, clause 20[1](e), a statement that, upon the debtor’s written request within the 30- day period, the debt collector will provide the debtor with 270 30 November 2018 Offici al Hansard Report
Bermuda House of Assembly the name and address of the original c reditor, if different from the current creditor. What is the recourse to the debtor if the debt collector does not comply with this section? On page 15, [clause] 21, Multiple debts. So this talks about a person can make a single payment —if the person owes multiple debts the debt collector shall not apply to payment to a debt that is in dispute. But, is it mandatory if a person . . . so, if I have got 10 accounts at the Credit Association, can I direct where that money should be paid or does the credit agency have the right to determine what bill is paid? [Inaudible interjections]
Ms. Leah K. ScottDoes the debtor have a right to say, Okay, I want you to pay this on my BELCO bill, this month. So it is not where I pay the money to the . . . I will go to BC A and I have got 10 bills, right. And I …
Does the debtor have a right to say, Okay, I want you to pay this on my BELCO bill, this month. So it is not where I pay the money to the . . . I will go to BC A and I have got 10 bills, right. And I go to BCA and I just give them $50 and they do not get to put it wherever they want. Can I say to them I would like to apply this to—
[Inaudible interjections]
The ChairmanChairmanInclude the Chair in the discussion, please.
An Hon. Member An Hon. MemberSorry, Mr. Chairman. [Laughter]
Ms. Leah K. ScottOkay. And there does not seem to be any reference to when a debt might be statutebarred. So are you considering what happens in that case?
An Hon. Member An Hon. MemberSix years.
Ms. Leah K. ScottRight. But there is no reference— oh, sorry. [Crosstalk]
Ms. Leah K. ScottI recognise that there is a statute of limitations, but there is no reference to it within the legislation. And there is no reference to whether if a debt is statute- barred what . . . kind of, what the r ecourse is. On page 16, Part 5, clause 23(1) …
I recognise that there is a statute of limitations, but there is no reference to it within the legislation. And there is no reference to whether if a debt is statute- barred what . . . kind of, what the r ecourse is. On page 16, Part 5, clause 23(1) where a debtor may lodge a complaint against an alleged unfair debt collection practice with the Authority. In some pieces of legislation they act ually provide the form [for the] complaint. Will there be a form? Is there going to be a standard— [Inaudible interjection]
Ms. Leah K. ScottOkay. And then . . . I think that is it on that page.
Ms. Leah K. ScottAnd, then, I just have . . . so, in looking at the . . . on page 19, [clause] 28 . . . and I am not going to get into a long discussion because I think it is just, it is confusion between the Tribunal and the Authority. …
And, then, I just have . . . so, in looking at the . . . on page 19, [clause] 28 . . . and I am not going to get into a long discussion because I think it is just, it is confusion between the Tribunal and the Authority. And I am not going to waste the time here doing it. So, I would rather talk to you afterwards, if you do not mind. But I would like some issues cleared up there. And, then, I think my last one is . . . oh, no, that is already answered. It was about whether or not the Tribunal would be paid positions, and it does say there will be remuneration. And so those are the only concerns that I have, and so from clauses 33 to the end, you can go straight right along through. Thank you.
The ChairmanChairmanYes. Any further speakers? Mrs. [Gordon- ]Pamplin, you have t he floor. Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am looking at page 11, and this is under Harassment, and that is clause 16(2)(b). And the question is that it is deemed to be harassment if there …
Yes. Any further speakers? Mrs. [Gordon- ]Pamplin, you have t he floor. Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am looking at page 11, and this is under Harassment, and that is clause 16(2)(b). And the question is that it is deemed to be harassment if there is any threat or if there is threat to use any means to spread false information concerning the credit worthi-ness of a debtor. The question is, If there is truthful information concerning the credit worthiness of a debtor, which is covered under subsection (3), and (3)(a) which effectively . . . I am sorry, (3)(b), which says you cannot communicate information about the debt or the existence of the debt with any person. So, we are talking about the debt. We are talking about the debtor. And we obv iously do not want to ruin somebody’s reputation. But the thing is that if somebody has a truthful comment about the debtor, how is that going to be covered to ensure that the debtor is not negatively impacted especially in the event that they have, I think people like the Credit Association whose membership can actually go to the Association to find out about the credit worthiness of a particular individual. These are members of the Association, not the debt collector, but members of that Association. So, I am just wondering how that is going to be pr otected. In other words, if a creditor . . . I am sorry, a debtor . . . no sorry, a creditor wants information concerning a prospective debtor, and they are members of the Credit Association, they go to the Credit Association to ask, as part of the members hip, [which] is what their membership dues pay for, can they conBermuda House of Assembly tinue to do that —say to the Credit Association, is Pat Gordon- Pamplin a good risk or is she not a good risk for the purposes of me extending further credit ? So, I think that this probably just needs to be clarified. And, I had one other question . . . on page 15, [clause] 21 where it speaks to the applicant, if there are multiple debts, the applicant . . . I am sorry, the applicant can apply such payment in accordance with the debtor’s direct ions. So, the question is, if there are not specific directions given by the debtor to—when they make this lump sum payment —
The ChairmanChairmanThat question has been already put. Hon. Walter H. Roban: It was asked already. I have an answer. Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Okay, all right. Sorry, I did not get that. But . . . oh, no, I know the Honourable Member did ask the question; but what I …
That question has been already put.
Hon. Walter H. Roban: It was asked already. I have an answer. Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Okay, all right. Sorry, I did not get that. But . . . oh, no, I know the Honourable Member did ask the question; but what I wanted to clarify was whether the payment is likely to go against the debt that is likely to go into further default as a first position. So, in other words, if you do not especially say, I want my BELCO bill to be paid, it is just (I will wait for the Minister) . . . if I do not want my BELCO bill to be paid, will that payment be applied to the debt that is likely to go into further default and perhaps bi gger penalties?
The ChairmanChairmanMinister. Hon. Walter H. Roban: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. To that question put by the Honourable Member for constituency 23, they will have to go back . . . if there has been no explici t direction given, they have to go back and get it. Because in the absence …
Minister.
Hon. Walter H. Roban: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. To that question put by the Honourable Member for constituency 23, they will have to go back . . . if there has been no explici t direction given, they have to go back and get it. Because in the absence of the direction, the debtor . . . the Act now prohibits the r elease of information without it being understood by the debtor that this information will be provided to the creditor, or to another prospective creditor. Okay, like to the creditor who, you know, may want it. So, no one can release information on som ebody who owes debt unless it is agreed by the person who is the subject of the debt. Yes, you can give it to that person. Okay? So, if they have not already agreed, no. Okay, there has to be some effort made to make contact with them. There has been a request for information about you. Do you agree for it to be r eleased? They would have to.
The ChairmanChairmanThat is what the law says. Hon. Walter H. Roban: Yes.
The ChairmanChairmanThat is what this says. Minister, do you want to continue? Hon. Walter H. Roban: Just a few other clarifications, Mr. Chairman. [Clause] 16(h) already provides for the conduct of harassment in any manner . Debt collectors have to prove that he or she has sent notice and ver ified …
That is what this says. Minister, do you want to continue? Hon. Walter H. Roban: Just a few other clarifications, Mr. Chairman. [Clause] 16(h) already provides for the conduct of harassment in any manner . Debt collectors have to prove that he or she has sent notice and ver ified that that notice has been received. If a debt collector does not comply with [clause] 20, which is in Part 4, there will be an offence under [clause] 37. Part 4, [clause] 16(3), reviewing of information must be, as I said earlier, [with] the consent of the person who owes the debt. [Clause] 16(4) permits sharing of information with creditors of the debt itself. So, someone else is asking the question about that person’s debt who i s outside of that legal arrangement, no. Okay? I think those are the questions that were requested. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The ChairmanChairmanMrs. Gordon- [Pamplin]. Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Thanks. And just for clarity, on page 11, [clause] 16(2)( h), which speaks to the contacting, an unsolici ted contact on behalf of the same creditor with the debtor in any period of seven consecutive days, you cannot have more than three. …
Mrs. Gordon- [Pamplin].
Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Thanks. And just for clarity, on page 11, [clause] 16(2)( h), which speaks to the contacting, an unsolici ted contact on behalf of the same creditor with the debtor in any period of seven consecutive days, you cannot have more than three. The question begs, Does that mean live contact? Or does that mean you cannot leave a voicemail message or . . . I mean, I am just trying to understand, because you want to talk somebody. Where is my money? Where is the money? And you do not reach the person. Are you saying that you cannot contact them and leave a voicemail message in any period of that . . . more than three times in that seven- day period of time?
The ChairmanChairmanMinister. Hon. Walter H. Roban: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Three contacts. If there needs to be some more precision done to that, we can take that under advisement, but if they leave three voicemails, that is the, that would be the three contacts. [Crosstalk] Hon. Walter H. Roban: Yes, three …
Minister.
Hon. Walter H. Roban: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Three contacts. If there needs to be some more precision done to that, we can take that under advisement, but if they leave three voicemails, that is the, that would be the three contacts. [Crosstalk]
Hon. Walter H. Roban: Yes, three verifiable opport unities of contact. That is what we are talking about. And, certainly, if it is unsolicited and it goes beyond that, it is lawful . . . it is unlawful, sorry.
The ChairmanChairmanYou want to continue, Minister? Any— Hon. Walter H. Roban: Absolutely, Mr. Chairman. I now move through, if I can move clauses 37 to 56 [sic] —
The ChairmanChairmanWell, do you want to approve [clauses] 16 through 36? 272 30 November 2018 Offici al Hansard Report Bermuda House of Assembly Hon. Walter H. Roban: Again, my enthusiasm to get through it.
The ChairmanChairmanThat is fine. Hon. Walter H. Roban: If I may move clauses 16 through 36, as printed.
The ChairmanChairmanIt has been moved that clauses 16 through 36 be approved. Are there any objections to that? There are no objections. Approved. [Motion carried: Clauses 16 through 36 passed.] Hon. Walter H. Roban : Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Now, may I move—
The ChairmanChairmanThe Deputy Leader of the Opposition has no objections. The party has no objections to move the other . . . the remainder of clauses? [Inaudible interjections] Hon. Walter H. Roban: Shall I read the explanations of those clauses, Mr. Chairman?
The ChairmanChairmanYes, yes, if you — Hon. Walter H. Roban: Mr. Chairman, I am asking as that is a customary practice.
The ChairmanChairmanYes, yes. Hon. Walter H. Roban: But, are you allowing me to be relieved of that customary practice?
The ChairmanChairmanContinue, Minister. You wanted to move— [Inaudible interjections] Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: I would like very briefly for him to read it into the record—
The ChairmanChairmanNo problem, Minister. Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: —because I think it is important for the public.
The ChairmanChairmanMinister, please read for Mrs. Go rdon[-Pamplin]. Hon. Walter H. Roban: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am at the mercy and the pleasure of the House and I will do whatever the House requests. So, I will read quickly [clauses] 37 through 56 [sic].
The ChairmanChairmanYou do not have to read every line by line. [Laughter]
The ChairmanChairmanJust a summary. Hon. Walter H. Roban: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for your guidance. Clause 37 creates offences and provides for penalties for debt collectors engaging in any unfair practices. Clause 38 c reates offences and provides for penalties for furnishing incorrect information in appl ication of a debt collection …
Just a summary.
Hon. Walter H. Roban: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for your guidance. Clause 37 creates offences and provides for penalties for debt collectors engaging in any unfair practices. Clause 38 c reates offences and provides for penalties for furnishing incorrect information in appl ication of a debt collection licence. Clause 39 creates offences and provides for penalties for debt collectors who obstruct, fail to comply with requirements, or give f alse information to an inspector in complaints, inspections and investigations. Clause 40 creates offences and provides penalties for improper conduct. Clause 41 provides a civil penalty procedure for non- compliance as outlined in clauses 14 and 40. Clause 42 provides that a debt, that a debt collector liable to a civil penalty shall not also be charged with an offence. Clause 43 creates general offences and penalties for furnishing false information, obstructing i nvestigations under Part 5, or failing to comply with an order issued under Part 6. Clause 44 provides for offences by bodies corporate. Clause 45 provides for a defence of mistake or accident against any offence under this Act. Clause 46 requires the members of the A uthority and the Tribunal to maintain the confidentiality of all information they receive in their functions. Clause 47 provides for the non- application of the Public Access to Information Act 2010, (PATI), with respect to information relating to any records held by the Authority or Tribunal. Clause 48 grants immunity to Tribunal members and an Officer for anything done in carrying out, essentially, carrying out their duties in good faith. Clause 49 empowers the Minister, on the advice of the Authority, to make regulations subjec t to the negative resolution procedure, for matters including forms, fees and charges, codes of conduct and all other matters prescribed under the Bill. Provision is made for the imposition of penalties to the amount of not exceeding $25,000 for contravent ion regulations. Clause 50 provides for transitional matters. The clause provides for a transitional period of 90 days beginning from the date of commencement of the Act. During the transitional period, the Act shall be applicable to persons conducting debt collection bus iness except with respect to the licensing provisions under clauses 7 through 14.
Bermuda House of Assembly Continuing on, Mr. Chairman.
The ChairmanChairmanContinue. Hon. Walter H. Roban: Clause 51 provides for consequential amendments to the Government Fees Regulat ions 1976. Clause 52 provides for the Minister to bring the Act into operation by notice published in the off icial Gazette. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The ChairmanChairmanNo further speakers? Mrs. [Gordon- ]Pamplin, you have the floor. Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I am referring to page 29 and that is the licence application fees of $2,000 under sections 8(2)(o) and 14(1), debt collection licence r enewal fee under sections 14, …
No further speakers? Mrs. [Gordon- ]Pamplin, you have the floor. Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I am referring to page 29 and that is the licence application fees of $2,000 under sections 8(2)(o) and 14(1), debt collection licence r enewal fee under sections 14, $2,000 and $1,000. And the question is, If we are going to require, and maybe even one additional staff, are we going to be covering the costs by having such a minimal application fee for debt collectors? Debt collectors roll in the money. [So] $2,000 and $1,000 for the application fee seems to be a rather generous fee for them to pay.
The ChairmanChairmanMinister, do you want to respond to that? Hon. Walter H. Roban: I will just speak to that and certainly . . . I think this is not to be punitive on those who are in the business. We are looking to get them on side. We are changing how …
Minister, do you want to respond to that?
Hon. Walter H. Roban: I will just speak to that and certainly . . . I think this is not to be punitive on those who are in the business. We are looking to get them on side. We are changing how they are going to be managed, so this is perhaps slightly a carrot or stick. We want them to be subject to this law which is more important than how much money we earn from that process, I think. And we want this to be a smooth process which is not too much of a problem or exorbitant to them so that we can get them on board. And obviously how they will be managed under this law will change over time. But we need to get them on board, get them on side, be cooperative to the regime that we are putting on. So, a minimal or a reasonable fee to become licensed [for] work that you are already doing, we think, is appropriate.
The ChairmanChairmanAny further speakers? There appear to be none. Minister, do you want to move these claus es? Hon. Walter H. Roban: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I wish to move clauses 37 through 52.
The ChairmanChairmanIt has been moved that clauses 37 through 52 be approved. Any objections to that? There appear to be none. Approved. [Motion carried: Clauses 37 through 52 passed.]
The ChairmanChairmanMinister, do you want to move the preamble? Hon. Walter H. Roban: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I move that the preamble be approved.
The ChairmanChairmanIt has been moved that the preamble be approved. Any objections to that? There appear to be none. Approved. Hon. Walter H. Roban: Mr. Chairman, I move that the Bill be reported to the House as printed.
The ChairmanChairmanIt has been moved that the Bill be reported to the House as printed. Any objections to that? There appear to be none. The Bill will be reported to the House as printed. [Motion carried: The Debt Collection Act 2018 was considered by a Committee of the whole House and …
It has been moved that the Bill be reported to the House as printed. Any objections to that? There appear to be none. The Bill will be reported to the House as printed.
[Motion carried: The Debt Collection Act 2018 was considered by a Committee of the whole House and passed without amendment.]
House resumed at 5:04 pm
[Hon. Dennis P. Lister, Jr., Speaker, in the Chair]
REPORT OF COMMITTEE
DEBT COLLECTION ACT 2018
The SpeakerThe SpeakerGood evening, everyone. Are there any objections to reporting to the House the Debt Collection Act 2018 as printed? No objections. So moved. It has now been reported back to the House. That brings us to the close of that matter. We will now move on to the next Order …
Good evening, everyone. Are there any objections to reporting to the House the Debt Collection Act 2018 as printed? No objections. So moved. It has now been reported back to the House. That brings us to the close of that matter. We will now move on to the next Order on the agenda for today which is the second reading of the Merchant Shipping Amendment Act 2018 in the name of the Minister of Tourism and Transport. Minister, would you l ike to present your matter?
Hon. Zane J. S. De Silva: Yes, Mr. Speaker . Mr. Speaker, I move that consideration be given to the draft order entitled the Merchant Shipping (Carriage of Passengers by Sea) Order 2018.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerAh, the . . . no, no— 274 30 November 2018 Offici al Hansard Report Bermuda House of Assembly An Hon. Member: Are we doing— Hon. Zane J. S. De Silva: Which one are we doing first?
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThe first one. The first one. Hon. Zane J. S. De Silva: Oh. [Crosstalk] Hon. Zane J. S. De Silva: Oh.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerYes, Merchant Shipping Amendment Act 2018. Yes. Hon. Zane J. S. De Silva: Oh, okay. All right. We will do that one first. Okay. I am okay with that. Just give me one second, Mr. Speaker . [Pause]
The SpeakerThe SpeakerNo problem. Hon. Zane J. S. De Silva: All right, Mr. Speaker , yes.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerYes, Minister. Go ahead, you have the floor. Hon. Zane J. S. De Silva: Yes, Mr. Speaker . BILL SECOND READING MERCHANT SHIPPING AMENDMENT ACT 2018 Hon. Zane J. S. De Silva: I move that the Bill entitled the Merchant Shipping Amendment Act 2018 be now read a second time.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerAny objections? No objections. Continue. Hon. Zane J. S. De Silva: Mr. Speaker , the purpose of the order . . . hang on, wait a minute. Hang on, Mr. Speaker . Hang on, Mr. Speaker . Hang on, Mr. Speaker. [Crosstalk and laughter] Hon. Zane J. S. De Silva: …
The SpeakerThe SpeakerMinister, you have the floor. [Laughter] Hon. Zane J. S. De Silva: Ah, thank you very much. The purpose of this Bill before the House t oday is to make am endments to the Bermuda Merchant Shipping Act 2002 to bring it up to date with current changes in the …
Minister, you have the floor. [Laughter] Hon. Zane J. S. De Silva: Ah, thank you very much. The purpose of this Bill before the House t oday is to make am endments to the Bermuda Merchant Shipping Act 2002 to bring it up to date with current changes in the maritime shipping industry, and to bring the Act up to date with the United Kingdom Merchant Shipping Act of 1995. Mr. Speaker, the proposed amendments are required to give effect to and enact changes and new requirements to International Maritime Organization (IMO) conventions which are incorporated in the Act. Specifically, amendments are required to the Act to give effect to changes to International Convention on Oil Pollution Preparedness; Response and Cooper ation 1990, also called the OPRC Convention; and to the International Oil Pollution Compensation Funds, also known as IOPC; as well as to implement the IMO Nairobi International Convention on the Removal of Wrecks 2007. I will now provide a summary on the amendments. First, Mr. Speaker, the OPRC Convention establishes a global framework for international corpor ation to deal with major incidents of marine pollution. The Convention establishes a framework for assi stance and cooperation among state parties for dealing with major incidents of pollution. State parties to the Convention are required to establish detailed plans to deal with major marine pollution incidences at the national level and also in cooperation with other countries. Ships are required to have arrangements on board ships which must be coordinated with national systems for responding promptly and effectively to oil pollution incidents. State parties to this Convention are required to provide assistance to other parties in the event of an oil pollution emergency. Provision is made for the reimbursement for any assistance provided by other state parties. The Convention was ratified in 1990 and entered into force in 1995. Mr. Speaker, aligning with this Convention, under the Act, the Minister has the function of taking or coordinating measures to prevent, reduce and mi nimise the effects of marine pollution, and over the passage of time their requirements have evolved. Amendments include, for example, the insertion of a definition for “national contingency plan,” namely the National Contingency Plan for Preparedness and R esponse required under Article 6 of the OPRC Convention, and also a definition for “offshore installations,” in Part 8, Prevention of Pollution, Chapter 3, in the section related to discharge of oil from ships into certain Bermuda waters. Mr. Speaker, the second set of amendments pertain to the IOPC funds which are two intergover nmental organisations —the 1992 fund and the suppl ementary fund. These provide compensation for oil pollution damage resulting in spills or persistent oil from
Bermuda House of Assembly tankers. The framework for the regime was the 1969 International Convention on Civil Liability for Oil Poll ution Damage and the 1971 International Convention on the Establishment of an International Fund for Compensation for Oil Pollution. Over time, it became clear that the amount of compensation available for major incidents needed to be increased and the scope of the regime widened. This resulted in two further instruments knows as the 1992 Civil Liability Convention and the 1992 Fund Convention. Subsequently, the protocol to the 1992 Fund Convention, the Supplementary Fund Protocol, was adopted in 2003 providing additional compens ation ov er and above that available under the 1992 Fund Convention for pollution damage in the states that become parties to the protocol. Therefore, amendments are required in Part 8, Prevention of Pollution, Chapter 5 of the Act, to bring it up to date with cur rent changes and requir ements set out in the IOPC funds. The third set of amendments, Mr. Speaker, relate to the Wreck Removal Convention which was adopted at the International Maritime Organization Diplomatic Conference in Nairobi, Kenya, in 2007 and entered into force on the 14 th of April 2015. The Convention is an important addition to the existing Mar itime Conventions as it places strict liability on oper ators for shipwrecks that cause damage or threat to the safety of navigation, the marine environment and the coastline or related interests of one or more states. It makes financial security compulsory for ships of 300 gross tonnage and above and state par-ties to satisfy the presence of appropriate insurance on ships flying their flag. Therefore, all Bermuda regi stered ships will now be required to carry on board a Wreck Removal Insurance Certificate, known as the WRIC, to attest that insurance or other financial sec urity to cover liability for wrecks is in place. The Convention also provides state par ties with a right of direction against insurers. Mr. Speaker, the Convention fills a gap in the existing international legal framework by providing a set of uniform international rules for the prompt and effective removal of wrecks located in a country’s exclusive economic zone or an equivalent 200 nautical mile zone. Notably, the Convention enables states parties to opt in to apply certain provisions to their ter-ritory including the territorial sea. A wreck under the Convention includes sunken or stranded ships and any parts of such ships or objects that were lost at sea from the ships, as well as the ships in distress facing a danger of sinking or stranding. Mr. Speaker, I would also like to advise the Honourable Member s of the IMO Instrument Impl ementation Code, commonly referred as the III Code, which came into effect in January of 2016. The III Code is concerned with providing a unified international standard for the operation of maritime functions by IMO member states in accordance with the prov i-sions of the IMO instruments. It also forms the basis of audit standards for the mandatory IMO member state audit scheme. The audits of member states will be conduc ted by the IMO auditors to determine the level of com-pliance with the code and accordance with the audit scheme schedule which has been approved by the Council of the IMO. It is expected that audits of the UK and Overseas Territories will commence in mid- 2020. As such, the proposed amendments presented today are also required to comply with the prov isions of the III Code as well as the provide enabling legislation to give effect to relevant IMO Conventions and to have in place the necessary national legislation so that the following Conventions can be extended to Bermuda by the UK: • International Conv ention on Oil Pollution Pr eparedness, Response and Cooperation 1990; • International Convention on Oil Pollution, Pr eparedness, Response and Cooperation 1990, Protocol 2000; • IMO Nairobi International Convention on the Removal of Wrecks 2007; • International Oi l Pollution Compensation Funds Protocol 1992; and • International Oil Pollution Compensation Funds Protocol 2003 Supplementary. Thank you, Mr. Speaker .
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThank you, Minister. Does any other Member wish to speak? We recognise the Deputy Oppositi on Leader. Honourable Member , you have the floor.
Ms. Leah K. ScottThank you, Mr. Speaker . Mr. Speaker, we do not have any challenges with this piece of legislation. It is essentially bringing the legislation in compliance with various Conventions and so, accordingly, the Opposition supports the Bill. Thank you.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThank you. Does any other Member wish to speak? No other Member? Minister. Hon. Zane J. S. De Silva: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . I move that the Bill be committed.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThank you, Minister. Hon. Zane J. S. De Silva: And, I do thank the Deputy Opposition Leader.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerDeputy? Hon. Derrick V. Burgess, Sr.: Yes, sir.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerHave the seat. 276 30 November 2018 Offici al Hansard Report B ermuda House of Assembly House in Committee at 5:17 pm [ Hon. Derrick V. Burgess, Sr., Chairman] COMMITTEE ON BILL MERCHANT SHIPPING AMENDMENT ACT 2018
The ChairmanChairmanHonourable Members, we are now in Committee of the whole [House] for further consideration of the Bill entitled Merchant Shipping Amendment Act 2018 . M inister, you have the floor. Hon. Zane J. S. De Silva: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. With the concurrence of the Opposition, and in particular the …
The ChairmanChairmanContinue. Hon. Zane J. S. De Silva: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, this Bill seeks to amend the Bermuda Merchant Shipping Act 2002, (the “principal Act”), to bring it up to date with the current changes in the maritime shipping industry. Clause 1 is the citation to the Act. …
Continue. Hon. Zane J. S. De Silva: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, this Bill seeks to amend the Bermuda Merchant Shipping Act 2002, (the “principal Act”), to bring it up to date with the current changes in the maritime shipping industry. Clause 1 is the citation to the Act. Clause 2 amends section 2 of the principal Act to insert a definition for “national contingency plan.” Clause 3 amends section 8 of the principal Act to change “national plan” to “national contingency plan.” Clause 4 amends the principal Act by repealing and substituting a new section 130 on discharge of oil from ships into certain Bermuda waters. Clause 5 amends section 169 of the principal Act to introduce new terms like “Supplementary Fund,” “Supplementary Fund Protocol country,” and “Supplementary Fund Protocol,” and their definitions. Clause 6 amends section 170 of the principal Act to delete and substitute subsections (3) and (7) to accommodate the Supplementary Fund. Clause 7 amends section 171 of the principal Act in subsections (1) and (4) to make provision for the Supplementary Fund. Clause 8 inserts a new section 173A and a new section 173B into the principal Act. The new sec-tion 173A makes provision for liability of the Suppl ementary Fund and the new section 173B makes pr ovision for limitation of the Supplementary Fund’s liabi lity under section 173A. Clause 9 amends section 174 of the principal Act in subsections (1) and (2) to make provision for the Supplementary Fund. New subsections (4), (5) and (6) have also been inserted to make provision for the Supplementary Fund. Clause 10 amends section 175 of the principal Act to insert new subsections (4) and (5) to make pr ovision for the Supplementary Fund. Clause 11 amends section 176 of the principal Act to make provision for the Supplementary Fund in a new subsection (1A) and in subsection (2). Clause 12 amends section 177 of the principal Act by the insertion of a new subsection (3) to make provision for the Supplementary Fund. Clause 13 amends section 178(3) of the pri ncipal Act to make provision for “Supplementary Fund Protocol country.” Clause 14 inserts a new section 188A to empower the Minister to make Regulations in respect of compulsory insurance of ships in Bermuda waters. Claus e 15 inserts a new Part IXA next after section 216 of the Act to make salient provisions of the Nairobi International Convention on the Removal of Wrecks applicable, in Bermuda. Offences and penalties are provided for infractions of various prov isions. Clause 16 amends section 254 of the principal Act to insert a new subsection (5). Clause 17 amends the principal Act by inserting a new Schedule 4ZA containing certain provisions of Articles 4, 13 and 15 of the Supplementary Fund Protocol. Clause 18 insert s the Nairobi International Convention on the Removal of Wrecks 2007 in new Schedule 7A next after Schedule 7 of the Act.
The ChairmanChairmanMinister, you are finished? Hon. Zane J. S. De Silva: Yes, Mr. Chairman, and, and—
The ChairmanChairmanI thought you— Hon. Zane J. S. De Silva: —before I take my seat, Mr. Chairman, I would certainly like to thank Parli amentary Counsel, Anthony Richardson, for his excel-lent work. And he was assisted by those in Chambers.
The ChairmanChairmanYou do that later on. We are in Committe e right now. Any further speakers? The Chair will recognise the Deputy Leader [of the Opposition], the Hon-ourable Leah Scott. You have the floor, Ms. Scott.
Ms. Leah K. ScottThank you, Mr. Chairman. I do not have anything to say other than to say that, again, we believe the legislation is just in line with Conventions and it is just a tidy up. So, not to let the public think that we are not doing our job, but there …
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I do not have anything to say other than to say that, again, we believe the legislation is just in line with Conventions and it is just a tidy up. So, not to let the public think that we are not doing our job, but there really is not anything contentious within the leg-islation. So, thank you.
The ChairmanChairmanOkay, Minister? Bermuda House of Assembly Hon. Zane J. S. De Silva: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And, once again, I would like to thank the O pposition and, in particular, the Opposition Deputy Leader. With that, Mr. Chairman, I move that the pr eamble be approved.
The ChairmanChairmanMove the clauses first. Hon. Zane J. S. De Silva: Oh, sorry. I move clauses . . . I move all clauses, 1 through 18.
The ChairmanChairman[Through] 18? It has been moved that clauses 1 through 18 be approved. Any objections to that? There appear to be none. Approv ed. [Motion carried: Clauses 1 through 18 passed.] Hon. Zane J. S. De Silva: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I move — [Crosstalk]
The ChairmanChairmanMove the Schedules. Hon. Zane J. S. De Silva: And I also move Schedules 1 and 2 that are part of the Bill, Mr. Cha irman .
The ChairmanChairmanIt has been moved that Schedules 1 and 2 be approved. Any objections to that? There appear to be none. Approved. [Motion carried: Schedules 1 and 2 passed.] Hon. Zane J. S. De Silva: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I move that the pream ble be approved.
The ChairmanChairmanIt has been moved that the preamble be approved. Any objections to that? There appear to be none. It is approved. Hon. Zane J. S. De Silva: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I move that the Bill be reported to the House as printed.
The ChairmanChairmanIt has been moved that the Bill be reported to the House as printed. Any objections to that? There appear to be no objections. Approved. [Motion carried: The Merchant Shipping Amendment Act 2018 was considered by a Committee of the whole House and passed without amendment.] House resumed at 5:24 …
It has been moved that the Bill be reported to the House as printed. Any objections to that? There appear to be no objections. Approved. [Motion carried: The Merchant Shipping Amendment Act 2018 was considered by a Committee of the whole House and passed without amendment.]
House resumed at 5:24 pm
[Hon. Dennis P. Lister, Jr., Speaker, in the Chair]
REPORT OF COMMITTEE
MERCHANT SHIPPING AMENDMENT ACT 2018
The SpeakerThe SpeakerMembers, any objection to the Merchant Shipping Amendment Act 2018 being reported to the House as printed? No objections. So moved. It has been reported. This brings us to a close of that matter. We will now move on to the next item on the Order Paper which is consideration …
Members, any objection to the Merchant Shipping Amendment Act 2018 being reported to the House as printed? No objections. So moved. It has been reported. This brings us to a close of that matter. We will now move on to the next item on the Order Paper which is consideration of the Merchant Shipping (Ca rriage of Passengers by Sea) Order 2018 in the name of Minister of Transport and Tourism. Minister .
ORDER
MERCHANT SHIPPING (CARRIAGE OF PASSENGERS BY SEA) ORDER 2018
Hon. Zane J. S. De Silva: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Mr. Speaker, I move that consideration be given to the draft Order entitled the Merchant Shipping (Carriage of Passengers by Sea) Order 2018 proposed to be made by the Minister responsible for maritime admini stration under section 179(3)(b) of the Merchant Shipping Act 2002.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerAre there any objections? No objections. Continue on, Minister. Hon. Zane J. S. De Silva: Mr. Speaker, the purpose of the Order before this Honourable House today is to give effect to new requirements as set out in the International Maritime Organization (IMO) Athens Convention. This Order is made by …
Are there any objections? No objections. Continue on, Minister.
Hon. Zane J. S. De Silva: Mr. Speaker, the purpose of the Order before this Honourable House today is to give effect to new requirements as set out in the International Maritime Organization (IMO) Athens Convention. This Order is made by the Minister responsible for the maritime administration exercising the power conferred by section 179(3)(b) of the Merchant Shipping Act 2002. Mr. Speaker, the Convention was adopted at a conference convened in Athens in 1974 and was designed to harmonise two earlier Brussels Conventions dealing with passengers and luggage and adopted in 1961 and 1967, respectively. The Convention establishes a regime of liability for damage suf-fered by passengers carried on a seagoing vessel. A new article of the Convention requires carr iers to maintain insurance or other financial security such as the guarantee of a bank or similar financial 278 30 November 2018 Offici al Hansard Report
Bermuda House of Assembly institution to cover the limits for strict liability under the Convention in respect of the death of and personal injury to passengers. While the Convention has been extended to Bermuda and adopted into law under the Merchant Shipping Act 2002, the amendm ent requi ring compulsory insurance which came into force in 2014 is not yet adopted by Bermuda. Mr. Speaker, the proposed Order sets out a requirement for ships using Bermuda ports to have insurance. If the ship is registered in Bermuda, the requirement t o carry insurance applies to any and all ports, not just Bermuda ports. The requirement only applies to ships licensed to carry more than 12 passengers, and it does not apply to ships licensed under Regulation 4 of the Marine Board (Island Boats) Regulations 1965, which carry passengers by sea solely within Bermuda waters. It also does not apply to war ships and other state owned or operated vessels that are used for non- commercial public service. The Order provides for the existence of the insurance to be approved by a certificate issued by the Minister, if it is a Bermuda ship, or by other A uthority. The certificate must be carried on board the ship and be able to produce on demand. Offences are committed if, for example, a ship enters or leaves a port wi thout insurance, without a certificate, without supplying a certificate on demand, or if the contract of insurance is invalid. It is proposed the applicable fines be $10,000. While there is a provision for power to detain a ship that fails to carry insurance, the Order allows for compensation to be paid where detention is de-termined by an arbitrator to be unjustified. A fee may be charged for the issuance of a certificate by a Mini ster and that fee may be prescribed under the Government Fees Act 1965. Thank you, Mr. Speaker .
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThank you, Honourable Minister. Does any other Member wish to speak?
Ms. Leah K. ScottMr. Speaker, we actually do not have anything to say about the Order. However, I just have a question on page 3, section 7, under Offences, 7(1) says “A carrier or performing carrier commits an offence if —” and I would presume because there is no definition in the Act …
Mr. Speaker, we actually do not have anything to say about the Order. However, I just have a question on page 3, section 7, under Offences, 7(1) says “A carrier or performing carrier commits an offence if —” and I would presume because there is no definition in the Act of what a “carrier” is, that a carrier would be P&O [Cruises], or Royal Caribbean, or something like one of those lines. So, then section 7(2) says, “A person found guilty of an offence under subparagraph (1), is liable—”, so the person would be P&O [Cruises] or Royal Caribbean. I know that the Minister has many talents, but I would like to know how he is going to put a ship in jail.
[Laughter]
The SpeakerThe SpeakerAny other Member wish to speak? [Crosstalk]
The SpeakerThe SpeakerMember, I think the Minister is trying to get your answer, how he is going to lock up that ship, eh? Minister, we are all interested to hear that. Hon. Za ne J. S. De Silva: Yes, this is riveting stuff here, Mr. Speaker .
The SpeakerThe SpeakerYes, yes. [Laughter] Hon. Zane J. S. De Silva: Mr. Speaker, someone in authority would go on- board the ship and they would take the necessary action to impound that particular ship. [Laughter]
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThey were not going to lasso it and pull it ashore, right? Hon. Zane J. S. De Silva: No, sir! [Laughter]
The SpeakerThe SpeakerNow, Minister, would you like to move us into Committee?
An Hon. Member An Hon. MemberNo Committee.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerNo Committee? Hon. Zane J. S. De Silva: No.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerNo, it is an Order. That is right. No Committee. It is an Order, here. [Crosstalk]
The SpeakerThe SpeakerDo the necessary comments, Minister. Hon. Zane J. S. De Silva: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Mr. Speaker, I move that the said draft Order be approved and that a suitable message be sent to His Excellency the Governor.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerAre there any objections to that? No objections? The necessary Order will be sent on to the Governor. No object ions to that? That now brings us to a close of the Merchant Shipping (Carriage of Passengers by Sea) Order 2018. [Motion carried: The Merchant Shipping (Carriage of Passengers by …
Are there any objections to that? No objections? The necessary Order will be sent on to the Governor. No object ions to that? That now brings us to a close of the Merchant Shipping (Carriage of Passengers by Sea) Order 2018.
[Motion carried: The Merchant Shipping (Carriage of Passengers by Sea) Order 2018 was approved.]
Bermuda House of Assembly The Speaker: Which actually, in doing so, brings us to the end of the Orders for today. We will do our third readings — Hon. Curtis L. Dickinson: Mr. Speaker —
The SpeakerThe SpeakerYes? SUSPENSION OF STANDING ORDER 21 Hon. Curtis L. Dickinson: I move that Standing O rder 21 be suspended to enable me to move that the Bill entitled Customs Tariff Amendment (No. 3) Act 2018 be now read the third time by its title only.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerYes. [Motion carried: Standing Order 21 suspended.] BILL THIRD READING CUSTOMS TARIFF AMENDMENT (NO. 3) ACT 2018 Hon. Curtis L. Dickinson: I move that the Bill be now read a third time by its title only and passed.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerAny objections to that? No objections. So passed. [Motion carried: The Customs Tariff Amendment (No. 3) Act 2018 was read a third time and pass ed.]
The SpeakerThe SpeakerMinister. SUSPENSION OF STANDING ORDER 21 Hon. Walter H. Roban: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . I move that Standing Order 21 be suspended to enable me to move that the Bill entitled the Debt Collection Act 2018 be now read the third time by its title only.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerAny objections? Continue on. [Motion carried: Standing Order 21 suspended.] BILL THIRD READING DEBT COLLECTION ACT 2018 Hon. Walter H. Roban: Mr. Speaker, I move that the Bill be now read a third time by its title onl y and passed.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerAny objections? No objections. So moved and passed. [Motion carried: The Debt Collection Act 2018 was read a third time and passed.]
The SpeakerThe SpeakerMinister? SUSPENSION OF STANDING ORDER 21 Hon. Zane J. S. De Silva: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Speaker . I move that Standing Order 21 be suspended to enable me to move that the Bill entitled Merchant Shipping Amendment Act 2018 be now read the third time by its title …
The SpeakerThe SpeakerAny objections? No objections. [Motion carr ied: Standing Order 21 suspended.] BILL THIRD READING MERCHANT SHIPPING AM ENDMENT ACT 2018 Hon. Zane J. S. De Silva: Mr. Speaker, I move that the Bill be now read a third time by its title only and passed.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerAny objections? No objections. The matter has now been passed. [Motion carried: The Merchant Shipping Amendment Act 2018 was read a third time and passed.]
The SpeakerThe SpeakerDeputy? No, no, not Deputy Speaker. Deputy Premier. [Laughter and inaudible interjections ] ADJOURNMENT Hon. Walter H. Roban: Mr. Speaker, I do now — [Laughter] Hon. Walter H. Roban: —move that the House do now— 280 30 November 2018 Offici al Hansard Report Bermuda House of Assembly [Laughter] Hon. Walter …
Deputy? No, no, not Deputy Speaker. Deputy Premier.
[Laughter and inaudible interjections ]
ADJOURNMENT
Hon. Walter H. Roban: Mr. Speaker, I do now —
[Laughter]
Hon. Walter H. Roban: —move that the House do now—
280 30 November 2018 Offici al Hansard Report
Bermuda House of Assembly [Laughter]
Hon. Walter H. Roban: Mr. Speaker, I do move now that the House do now adjourn to next Friday . . . is it the 7th?
The SpeakerThe Speaker[Yes.] 7, the 7th. Hon. Walter H. Roban: The 7th of December 2018.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerAny objections to that? No? Anyone wish to speak to that? The Member from constituency 11 wishes to speak to that matter. Proceed.
Mr. Christopher FamousIf you cannot move fast, you have to move early. Good evening, Mr. Speaker, how are you doing?
The SpeakerThe SpeakerI do recognise that we have finished early. It will be nice to get out early.
Mr. Christoph er FamousYes, indeed. Mr. Speaker, you ever heard of a term called “situational ethics”?
An Hon. Member An Hon. MemberOh, dear.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerKeep talking. COST OF PREMIER’S SUPPORT STAFF
Mr. Christopher FamousWell, situational ethics is when a situation takes into account a particular context of an act when evaluating it ethically rather than judging it according to absolute moral standards. Translated, that means when one person, or a set of persons, has a problem when you do something, but they themselves …
Well, situational ethics is when a situation takes into account a particular context of an act when evaluating it ethically rather than judging it according to absolute moral standards. Translated, that means when one person, or a set of persons, has a problem when you do something, but they themselves had no problem when they were doing it. Situational ethics. Essentially it is called, to sum it up, hypocrisy. So, Mr. Speaker, two days ago in another place that is real close by here, a question was asked about the cost of the support staff for the Honour able Premier E. David Burt. It is funny because that same 1question was asked in this House a couple of months ago. Anybody remember that?
1 “Premier And Opposition Leader Personal Staffs Act 1983,” Official Hansard Report , Question Period, 9 February 2018, page 978. An Hon. Member: Yes.
Mr. Christopher FamousAnd I am wondering if they thought that the costs were going to change over the last few months. They have not. So, for full transparency, let us go through the line by line items. The first support staff member, Dr. Dana Selassie, is a young Bermudian lady with a …
And I am wondering if they thought that the costs were going to change over the last few months. They have not. So, for full transparency, let us go through the line by line items. The first support staff member, Dr. Dana Selassie, is a young Bermudian lady with a doctorate in film -making. How many of those do we have, Mr. Speaker ? Not many. So, what does Dr. Selassie do? She arranges local and overseas interviews to help raise the profile of Bermuda. She coordinates all public addresses for the Premier, executes the overall media strategy, and is in charge of all of the Pr emier’s written correspondence. Again, a young Bermudian lady with a doctorate in film -making doing all this on behalf of the Gover nment of Bermuda. But some people have a problem with that. Again, situational ethics. Let me move on, Mr. Speaker . Mr. Owe n Da rrell, Chief of Staff, which every Premier as of late has had. Correct?
An Hon. Member An Hon. MemberCorrect.
Mr. Christopher FamousSo, when other persons had a Chief of Staff, it was not a problem. Now that we have a Chief of Staff, it is an issue. That is hypo crisy. But let me go through what Mr. Owen Darrell does. He books appointments for the Premier, ar-ranges schedules during travel …
So, when other persons had a Chief of Staff, it was not a problem. Now that we have a Chief of Staff, it is an issue. That is hypo crisy. But let me go through what Mr. Owen Darrell does. He books appointments for the Premier, ar-ranges schedules during travel . . . you know, got to go to London, got to go to Brussels, got to go to here, got to go to there. Somebody’s got to do that . The Premier cannot sit up on a, what do they call that? Travelocity.com booking his own appointments.
[Laughter]
Mr. Christopher FamousSomebody has got to do that, arrange for all of his public appearances. He meets with concerned members of the publ ic when they want to talk to different Ministers. Now, how many Ministers have we got —11, 10, whatever? All right? Somebody has commented that, O kay, I need …
Somebody has got to do that, arrange for all of his public appearances. He meets with concerned members of the publ ic when they want to talk to different Ministers. Now, how many Ministers have we got —11, 10, whatever? All right? Somebody has commented that, O kay, I need to do this. So, the Chief of Staff says, Okay, I know the perfect Minister you have got to talk to. All right? That is part of his duties. Contacting the organisers of local and international meetings. Right now, the Premier is overseas on a tour in London, and in the north of the UK. Something that other Premiers have never done because, as we know, a lot of Bermudians have moved to the UK. Some are living in London, but many are living in the north? So, you know what we are doing? We are having meetings wherever these Bermudians are. Somebody has to
Bermuda House of Assembly coordinate that. And that somebody is the Chief of Staff, Mr. Owen Darrell. So, let me move on. He also reads case studies to prepare briefs for the Premier. He also liaises with local and overseas protocol officers. He also l iaises with special branch and other security services abroad to assure the safet y of our Premier. So, people have a problem with that. They did not have a problem when somebody else had a Chief of Staff. Why have they got a problem now? Situational ethics. Hypocrisy. Let me move on. Ms. Haley Telford, who is a professional paraeduc ator, is also a caretaker of the Premier’s children. Now, let us put it this way. Ms. Telford is not just a babysitter. Ms. Telford looks after these children when the Premier and his wife are out at official functions. Or should they just carry their children with them? But, when they are not doing off icial functions, the Premier’s paying Ms. Telford out of his own pocket. It is not the taxpayers’ money, as some people tried to allude to. Should the Premier be saying, Oh, should I go to this function? Or s hould I stay home with my children? Should I go to the . . . we have to have our Premier. So, this is what this lady is doing. Mr. Speaker, as we all know, Bermuda is in a precarious financial situation. We are being attacked by the OECD, the EU, the Unit ed States and our mother country, the United Kingdom. We need som eone going abroad to defend our interests. We need somebody going abroad to help diversify our economy. So, what happens? We have this Premier working very hard, doing those things. He has to have support staff. There is no way he can do this on his own. Any of you think he can do it on his own? No? Right. So, again, if nobody thinks he can do this on his own, why the hypocrisy? Why the, We got to know how much they are paying? Why? They had no interest when other people were paying twice as much. But I am going to leave that alone. Twice as much— that is the key word. So, let me close, Mr. Speaker . Do you really think this guy can do this by himself, the Honourable Premier? No. He needs someone to make his travel arrangements. He needs somebody to book his flights. He needs somebody to tell him which Uber to take, which subway to get on. He needs somebody to look after his children when he is out there defending our country. So, again, I am going to close right here, Mr. Speaker, we have to stop with the situational ethics, when our young black Premier, who is defending this country, who is lowering our deficit, who is lowering our unem-ployment, who is diversifying our economy, when he is doing all of this on our behalf, why are we . . . he is being constantly badgered on, How much is your staff costing you? Where other people were doing less, no questions were asked. No questions were put in the paper every week. Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pampl in: Point of order, Mr. Speaker .
The SpeakerThe SpeakerYour point of order? POINT OF ORDER [Misleading] Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: The Honourable Member is perhaps inadvertently misleading the House, because he may not have been here. But there were certainly many questions that were asked in terms of the cost of various staff that was —
Mr. Christopher FamousOh. Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: —that was hired by, not just the former OBA administration coming from the PLP to us, but also from us to the f ormer PLP administration. So, the questions have been consistent in order to provide the public with an accounting as to where …
Oh.
Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: —that was hired by, not just the former OBA administration coming from the PLP to us, but also from us to the f ormer PLP administration. So, the questions have been consistent in order to provide the public with an accounting as to where their money is going. It is not ours. Thank you, sir.
Mr. Christopher FamousSo, very interesting. So, again, when the question was asked of our Premier six months ago, and it was shown that his cost is half of what their cost was, why are you asking again? Why go down that road again? Did you think the number was going to change? …
So, very interesting. So, again, when the question was asked of our Premier six months ago, and it was shown that his cost is half of what their cost was, why are you asking again? Why go down that road again? Did you think the number was going to change? No. I am going to say this again: We have a Premier that has proven in 18 months that he has lowered the deficit, he is diversifying the economy, he has lowered unemployment. He needs as much support as possible—whether it is from the Backbench, the Cabinet, his support staff, or the people of Bermuda. And I will beg the Opposition to lend their support as well. Stop the hypocrisy. Stop the situational ethics. Thank you, Mr. Speaker .
The SpeakerThe SpeakerDoes any other Member wish to speak? We recognise the Honourable Member from constituency 21. Honourable Member , you have the floor. INCOME INEQUALITY
Mr. Rolfe CommissiongThank you, Mr. Speaker . Mr. Speaker, in the last 24 or 36 hours we have, as a community, as a society, been subjected to the news that in two separate neighbourhoods there were gunshots fired. One could be mistaken into think ing that we were living in Mexico or …
Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Mr. Speaker, in the last 24 or 36 hours we have, as a community, as a society, been subjected to the news that in two separate neighbourhoods there were gunshots fired. One could be mistaken into think ing that we were living in Mexico or the inner -city USA, parts of Great Britain, Central or South America, 282 30 November 2018 Offici al Hansard Report
Bermuda House of Assembly for it is in these countries and these locales with very high levels of income inequality that you find such outcomes, such impacts that begin to metastasise like a cancer within these respective societies. I had mentioned before that in those countries with high levels of income inequality you see the fol-lowing impacts: gang format ion, gang violence, higher incarceration rates (particularly around capital crimes such as murder), poor educational outcomes, an exacerbation of poverty (relative and real), and in our case there is a variable, the exacerbation of preexisting racial disparities. Mr. Speaker, we are not alone. This is a phenomenon that is found throughout the West, in many parts of the globe. And Bermuda is no longer another world and has been subjected to the same factors that have produced these outcomes throughout the world. Mr. Speaker, I came across an article in the Economist magazine and it cited the words of Conf ucius, and Confucius’ admonition that we begin to have the right types of conversation, honest and frank, around issues of extreme urgency and issues of important public policy. Confucius had this to say, and I am going to quote from, if I may be indulged by you, Mr. Speaker , the Economist magazine. It says here—and the article was in relation to the Trump phenomenon, but I am not going to go into that. It says here, Confucius once wrote, “If names cannot be correct, then language is not in accordance with the truth of things; and if language i s not in accordance with the truth of things, affairs cannot be carried on to success. ” I repeat: A ffairs cannot be carried on to success. Bermuda is at an inflection point. Let us be under no doubt about it. The status quo is no longer sustainable. Our position geopolitically is at risk. One has to look no further than the fact, as my colleague mentioned from [constituency] 1, of the Premier’s trip over to the UK. But the most consequential part of that trip is what is coming after he leaves the UK in hi s direct conversations and discussions with the European Union. The European Union has set down a marker for us and said that those companies, broadly put, that are domiciled here but are not conducting any meaningful business on Island need to either est ablish a meaningful presence on Island, or they need to go somewhere else. In fact, and I stand to be corrected, they said the same thing to many other countries in the world. And now they are backed up by the OECD including Jersey, Guernsey, the Isle of M an . . . I b elieve one of those three put up the white flag just the other day indicating that they are willing to comply fully with the EU’s edict, if I can use that term. Bermuda has about 15,000 companies, I believe, registered companies in Bermuda. P robably about 4,000 of those are Bermudian companies. The rest are exempt companies. Many of them are regi stered here, domiciled here, but have no physical pres-ence. But that is not the only strategic threat that Bermuda is facing. The UK Government has indicated that by way of a very similar timeline of within the next few months they will require that Bermuda have a beneficial and . . . of ownership be put on a public register. In other words, a registry of beneficial ownership. Mr. Speaker, over four decades ago, the Western world in particular saw major changes. This is what I call during the Reagan/Thatcher era. And those changes which are now known as the neoliberal era ushered in changes that unleashed the finance industries to the degree that we see now, that made a major assault upon the labour movement in Western societies, which saw a significant shift away from l abour to capital, an ethos that developed that said the market was good, regulations were bad and that government was a bad word in and of itself. That four -decade period also saw along with that, the rise of what we call globalisation, as the Eastern bloc nations, allied with the former Soviet U nion, collapsed; and as China and India moved toward market -based economies. One of the chief byproducts of that era, also, was the growth of these offshore centres such as Bermuda, on steroids. Thus, we saw during that time, that ’80s period of mid to late ’80s, decline in tourism, the rise in international bus iness on Island, centred around the insurance and r einsurance industry, which had profound affects upon Bermuda which are still resonating four decades later today. That is what was ushered in during that period. Well, Mr. Speaker, nothing lasts forever. I contend that that era came to a s creeching halt with the advent of the Great Recession of 2008. And what we have seen since then has been a transitional per iod, a transitional period in Western societies and globally, more broadly, that has roiled politics all throughout the world and led to the growth of populism, extreme forms of nationalism, the rise of far -right politics in both Europe and America, the rise of white identity politics, the rise of anti -Semitism that harkens back to a very dark chapter in Western civilisation. So, my point is this: If in 2008 there was a screeching halt to the neoliberal era, of which Berm uda was a major beneficiary of, I contend that this has been, since then, an interim period and there is still . . . there is no indication of what is going to come out the other side during this transitional period. But from what we are seeing, some of the trends so far do not appear positive, as I have just outlined. Bermuda itself, perhaps, has reached a point where we, too, as is the case in the UK, can no longer have our cake and eat it too. How do you deal with massive amounts of income inequality that have really hurt Bermuda? We talk about the great success of IB on Island over the last four decades during that same period. But the success has not been unalloyed because it has left many people behind—particularly in Bermuda’s black community. And that is when I say
Bermuda House of Assembly about these impacts and how they have been ringfenced around Bermuda’s black community. Have they not? Do you know why we can say that with confidenc e? Because we see none of these impacts around Bermuda’s white community for the most part. In fact, because of their superior income and levels of multigenerational wealth—
An Hon. Member An Hon. MemberRubbish!
Mr. Rolfe Commissiong—they have been virtually immune to those impacts. And, Mr. Speaker, the Member for the other side interpolates Rubbish! [Inaudible interjections]
An Hon. Member An Hon. MemberDo not get distracted by it.
Mr. Rolfe Commissiong—we have seen none of those impacts in Bermuda’s white community. None. And we go again about these impacts —gang vi olence, gang formation, poor educational outcomes, exacerbation of poverty (real and relative), and, as I said, a pre- existing or exacerbation of pre- existing racial disparities. So, the question …
—we have seen none of those impacts in Bermuda’s white community. None. And we go again about these impacts —gang vi olence, gang formation, poor educational outcomes, exacerbation of poverty (real and relative), and, as I said, a pre- existing or exacerbation of pre- existing racial disparities. So, the question before us, Mr. Speaker, is, Are we goi ng to be able to seize the historical m oment, recognise that the status quo is no longer tenuable [sic] and move in a direction that truly is going to begin the process by which we can truly create (to borrow a phrase) “One Bermuda” to deal with this new era that is going to be upon us? But we can only do that if we put the demands that are existing for social and racial justice uppermost in fashioning this One Bermuda. This party, this Government, is determined to do that. The question is, Will we be able to move fast enough? And I say we are committed to doing so. The way you deal with countries with high levels of income inequality is to deal judiciously by implementing public policy measures that lead to a redistribution of i ncome. Contrary to what some may think, a country with high levels of income inequality, like Bermuda, does not have a boon to their economy. It may benefit the top 1, 2 or 3 or 5 per cent, but increasingly it leaves a desert for the rest. How we can create a more healthy economy is to have less income inequality and not more. That is why this Government —and I am fully in support of it —has talked about tax reform. Does it go far enough for me? No. But it is a start. Overdue but necessary. R educing the cost of living around health car e, around medical and health care costs, as we said, around energy costs, food stuffs, and lastly, around ensuring that those who toil are going to be adequately compensated by way of a living wage. Mr. Speaker, we have heard, finally, many in the communi ty on the other side calling for attention to our ageing population. We talked about that this mor ning and I agree. At 44 years, this being the average in terms of our population as an average age, that is not a sustainable number. We are in demographic wi nter. And so, we must increase our population. But the ot her side needs to listen to us, too. When we talk about increasing our population, they have to understand— that same Member interpolated that this causes a whole lot of trauma in my parents generation and our generation because they were the biggest, the biggest losers with respect to immigration policies in that post World War II era, in the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s where immigration was used as a racial tool. So, we need to have this conversation and this listening session going both ways. I am not seeing enough of that, particularly from the other side, and more so, their supporters, those within the business and other aspects of this community. So, this is the challenge we have before us. The quest ion is, can we rise up to meet that challenge? Because like I said, the status quo is no longer tenuable [sic].
Some Hon. Members Some Hon. MembersTenable. Tenable.
Mr. Rolfe CommissiongIt is, actually, tenuous. Mr. Speaker, let me leave with this thought here, and I have said it before. I have a young lady in my constituency. She was earning $7.50 an hour in a restaurant. She was working a six -day week, no overtime pay, and she was deemed …
It is, actually, tenuous. Mr. Speaker, let me leave with this thought here, and I have said it before. I have a young lady in my constituency. She was earning $7.50 an hour in a restaurant. She was working a six -day week, no overtime pay, and she was deemed a part -time employee. Over two weeks, she worked 96 hours and earned $720 in terms of her gross wage. By the time social insurance and payroll tax was taken out, again she is a part -time employee, she took home $620.90. She earned gratuities, but according to her —and I have no reason to doubt her and this a moderate sized restaurant —she probably took home no more than about $100 to $150 per week in gratuities. At the end of those two weeks then, Mr. Speaker, she took home under $1,000 after working 96 hours. That is the Berm uda that exists right now. For those Bermudians without a college education, those Bermudians who are low to medium skilled, it is not a great labour market for them. I heard the other day that we now have an unemployment 284 30 November 2018 Offici al Hansard Report
Bermuda House of Assembly rate for white Bermudians at 2 per cent. It has been that way for the last three years or more. Certainly, it has been under 4 or 5 per cent for the last five years, which means there has been full unemployment [sic] in that sector of our community. Again, that is the stats.
An Hon. Mem ber: Employment.
Mr. Rolfe CommissiongDo not shoot me. I am just a messenger. Whereas for black Bermudians, unemployment has been persistently high. This is what we need to address, Mr. Speaker , the structural and systemic issues which are impacting upon the various racial disparities and which are being exacerbated, to use that word …
Do not shoot me. I am just a messenger. Whereas for black Bermudians, unemployment has been persistently high. This is what we need to address, Mr. Speaker , the structural and systemic issues which are impacting upon the various racial disparities and which are being exacerbated, to use that word again, by the ever -growing levels of income inequality in Bermuda. And, Mr. Speaker, I thank you for your time.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThank you, Member. Does any other Honourable Member wish to speak? No other member? I recognise the Honourable Member from constituency 1, Honourable Member Ming.
Mrs. Renee MingGood afternoon, Mr. Speaker, and listening audience.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerIt is actually evening now, but good evening to you. COST OF PREMIER’S SUPPORT STAFF
Mrs. Renee MingGood evening. Good evening. Mr. Speaker, I would like to take my few minutes today to actually speak on the article that was in the Royal Gazette this week with regard to the Premier’s support staff. Being a wife and a mother, I think that I was, I would not …
Good evening. Good evening. Mr. Speaker, I would like to take my few minutes today to actually speak on the article that was in the Royal Gazette this week with regard to the Premier’s support staff. Being a wife and a mother, I think that I was, I would not say offended, but I did think to myself, Whoa! I say that because . . . and I do not need to go through all of the details. I believe my colleague before me spoke on who is hired and what they [earn]. But I think that as a country we can be honest and view it as we have a Premier who is extremely busy. The other side of it is, he is the youngest Premier. And so, I do not know the last time we would have had a Premier who had children the ages of four and two. May be even the first time. And so, I think that for those of us who are family people, and I am going to speak to it, I am one of them , I am a mot her. So, if I have to speak to it from that regard, I can tell you, to have two children under the age of five years, that is busy.
Mrs. Renee MingThat is busy without being the Premier of a country, without being the wife of a Premier of a country. So, I can imagine that all of us must be able to appreciate that support is needed. I do not know why the Honourable Member that sits in another place …
That is busy without being the Premier of a country, without being the wife of a Premier of a country. So, I can imagine that all of us must be able to appreciate that support is needed. I do not know why the Honourable Member that sits in another place asked those questions. For whatever reasons, he daily puts it out there in a public note. But we must be able to appreciate the role that the support plays and the fact that we do have a v ery busy Premier. So, Mr. Speaker, when I had a read of it, I sometimes wonder when I read . . . and I try my best to be objective, looking at things [to] provide clarity, even when I get up here and speak. So, if we are saying that the cost of the Premier ’s support staff is over $230,000 per year, okay. I am not sure if this was supposed to be a comparative analysis for us. But then on page two of the same article it does compare it with former Premier Cannonier’s personal staff sal ary which was revealed t o— [Timer beeps ]
The SpeakerThe SpeakerI am sorry. That is not for you.
Mrs. Renee Ming—be $418,000 per year. So, I do not know, like I said, again, if this was supposed to be a comparative analysis. But, former Premier Cannonier would have had this in 2013. So, if we were going to be objective about it, I would have expected to see what the …
—be $418,000 per year. So, I do not know, like I said, again, if this was supposed to be a comparative analysis. But, former Premier Cannonier would have had this in 2013. So, if we were going to be objective about it, I would have expected to see what the support staff costs were for 2014 to 2017 for the next Premier. But for whatever reasons, that information is not in this article.
Some Hon. Members Some Hon. MembersHmm. [Inaudible int erjections]
Mrs. Renee MingEh? So, what I want to say to our listening audience is, these are the types of things that I always stand up here and say to you that we have to be aware. We have to stay woke. And part of that is wondering, Well, what were those costs …
Eh? So, what I want to say to our listening audience is, these are the types of things that I always stand up here and say to you that we have to be aware. We have to stay woke. And part of that is wondering, Well, what were those costs during that period? Were they more than the $418,000? Were they less than? Were there 10 staff? Were there 12 staff? Mr. Speaker, these are the types of things when you are reading these things, you do not gloss over them. We have to take the t ime to see. We know our Premier is doing a great job. We know that he is busy. We know that his wife could use some support which is why they have a housekeeper/cook and a childcare person. So, Mr. Speaker —
[Inaudible interjections]
Mrs. Renee MingMr. Speaker, yes. It does behove me that those years which I spoke about, which is 2014, 2015, and 2016—which I am quite sure that if Bermuda House of Assembly the daily was able to obtain the 2013 numbers, they surely could have obtained the 2014, 2015 and 2016 numbers. …
Mr. Speaker, yes. It does behove me that those years which I spoke about, which is 2014, 2015, and 2016—which I am quite sure that if
Bermuda House of Assembly the daily was able to obtain the 2013 numbers, they surely could have obtained the 2014, 2015 and 2016 numbers. So, the quest ion to me is (and I know that no one on this side will probably be able to answer this), Why not? Why do we think that those numbers were not given to us?
An Hon. Member An Hon. MemberHmmm.
Mrs. Renee MingYes. And when I say that, Mr. Speaker, I mean, why were they not given to us in the article? I am quite sure that they will get this message that we have asked it. But, if we wanted to be fair, concise and more importantly, consistent, we would have …
Yes. And when I say that, Mr. Speaker, I mean, why were they not given to us in the article? I am quite sure that they will get this message that we have asked it. But, if we wanted to be fair, concise and more importantly, consistent, we would have actually gotten all of those numbers.
Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pam plin: Point of order, Mr. Speaker.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerWill take the point of order. Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Thank you.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerWill take the point of order. Yes. POINT OF ORDER [Misleading] Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Thank you. The Honourable Member must understand that even though they are Backbench, and even though they serve in the same Government, they have the right to ask questions. So, this is misleading the …
Will take the point of order. Yes.
POINT OF ORDER [Misleading]
Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Thank you. The Honourable Member must understand that even though they are Backbench, and even though they serve in the same Government, they have the right to ask questions. So, this is misleading the House to make it appear that asking and answering of questions is one sided. They have the ability to elicit whatever information they so choose.
Mrs. Renee MingThank you, Mr. Speaker. I think we are all aware of what we can and cannot do. Mr. Speaker, what I was actually saying is that in ter ms of those persons in our public, because that is who is listening right now and that is who needs to hear …
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I think we are all aware of what we can and cannot do. Mr. Speaker, what I was actually saying is that in ter ms of those persons in our public, because that is who is listening right now and that is who needs to hear this. They can ask those questions. But those are the things that they should be aware of when they read these things. I am not going to say that it is like a bad article or anything like that. But what I am saying is that sometimes we are only given the information that they want us to hear and read. Selective.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerTalk to the Chair. Talk to the Chair.
Mrs. Renee MingMr. Speaker. Yes. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am only again saying that support staff is a much needed thing, and that we can and we should always look to make sure that we are getting the whole story. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThank you, Honourable Member. Does no other Honourable Member wish to speak? [Laughter]
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThat was a little slow that time, wasn’t it? Hon. L. Craig Cannonier: I am not going to be long.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerW e recognise the Leader of the Opposition. Honourable Member, you have the floor. COST OF PREMIER’S SUPPORT STAFF Hon. L. Craig Cannonier: Yes, thank you, Mr. Speaker. In the vein of staying woke, as was aptly said by the former speaker, you know, I am sure that you will …
W e recognise the Leader of the Opposition. Honourable Member, you have the floor.
COST OF PREMIER’S SUPPORT STAFF
Hon. L. Craig Cannonier: Yes, thank you, Mr. Speaker. In the vein of staying woke, as was aptly said by the former speaker, you know, I am sure that you will see it seems that we are heading in the right direction. Every administration is spending less and less. And I am sure as you dig deeper you will find that certainly administrations are costing less , which is a great thing, Mr. Speaker. But in the vein of staying woke, you cannot get up and say, you know, situational ethics and the like when you have a Premier basically saying, Well, you know, I have got 10 M inistries, but I have got 12 Ministers, inferring almost that it costs less when it is costing more.
Some Hon. Members Some Hon. MembersHmmm. Hon. L. Craig Cannonier: So, you know, the situational ethics, I think . . . you know, we get up and we banter back and forth and we go back and forth. It is unnecessary to be trying to raise a bogeyman. There is no bogeyman. If you can’t …
An Hon. Member An Hon. MemberYou have got that right. Hon. L. Craig Cannonier: —then you should be able to ask a question. You know?
The SpeakerThe SpeakerMm- hmm. Hon. L. Craig Cannonier: Ask the questions. If an Honourable Member in another place wants to ask a question, then maybe they should go to the Honour able Member and say, Well, what was the purpose? I certainly was not consulted by the Royal Gazette at 286 30 …
Mm- hmm.
Hon. L. Craig Cannonier: Ask the questions. If an Honourable Member in another place wants to ask a question, then maybe they should go to the Honour able Member and say, Well, what was the purpose? I certainly was not consulted by the Royal Gazette at 286 30 November 2018 Offici al Hansard Report
Bermuda House of Assembly all, by the article. Maybe they should talk to the Royal Gazette. But d o not sit up here and cast a stone when we can certainly throw back a rock at you as well, or a stone. You know?
EUROPEAN UNION’S UPCOMING LIST OF NO NCOOPERATIVE JURISDICTIONS
Hon. L. Craig Cannonier: So, I wanted to speak just briefly to the EU comments that were being made, and I think some good comments had been made by the Honourable Member Rolfe Commissiong. I appreciated some of what he was saying there. I am very much concerned about the regul ations that are potentially coming forward and whether or not we will be blacklisted or put on some kind of list that would not be favourable to Bermuda. And I am encouraging this Government to ensure that they speak to the public about the implications of these regulations, and what they might mean to the average Bermudian. Many times, because of this IB business affecting ABIR and ABIC, we tend not to pay as close attention to what is going on there. And within the House of Assembly here we get caught up many times in local constituency skirmishes. Yet we fai l sometimes to bring the reality to the people of Berm uda of what the implications are, [what] these regul ations that are coming down are going to do to us. What is going to happen?
The SpeakerThe SpeakerMm- hmm. Hon. L. Craig Cannonier: Is it going to cost jobs? Is it going to potentially increase jobs? Whose jobs will be at risk? And it would be important, Mr. Speaker, if we could have a conversation, or hear from our Gover nment, letting the people know of the …
Mm- hmm.
Hon. L. Craig Cannonier: Is it going to cost jobs? Is it going to potentially increase jobs? Whose jobs will be at risk? And it would be important, Mr. Speaker, if we could have a conversation, or hear from our Gover nment, letting the people know of the potential [results] of these regulations coming down, which, by the way, will be coming down at the end of this month. And—
[Inaudible interjections]
Hon. L. Craig Cannonier: This month, yes.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerSpeak to the Chair. Speak to the Chair. You are all right. Hon. L. Craig Cannonier: Whenever it is. This month. We are going to be debating it next week. But the EU certainly will be making a grading of Bermuda this month, and based on where they position Berm …
Speak to the Chair. Speak to the Chair. You are all right.
Hon. L. Craig Cannonier: Whenever it is. This month. We are going to be debating it next week. But the EU certainly will be making a grading of Bermuda this month, and based on where they position Berm uda, it will be really interesting to see what happens there.
[Inaudible interjections]
Hon. L. Craig Cannonier: We know that the EU has something to say, and we know that it is imminent that we debate the Bill which eventually will be coming up next week, Mr. Speaker. And my concern really is, What are those implications going to be on all of us? What is going to be the impact on this economy? Which parts of the economy might be affected by these new restrictions that are being placed down, and it would be important that we relay that information so that we can all be . . . it may be a bit late to say be prepared, but at least we have an awareness of exactly what is going to take place. Some of it is up in the air. I certainly know that while we were Gover nment, Bob and myself spent a lot of time over the i ssues —
An Hon. Member An Hon. MemberWho? Hon. L. Crai g Cannonier: —the Honourable Bob Richards, fighting the case. And it was a unified message coming from the then Opposition and Gover nment. And there is a unified message, I believe, coming from us as an Opposition now, and the Gover nment, hoping that we can …
Who?
Hon. L. Crai g Cannonier: —the Honourable Bob Richards, fighting the case. And it was a unified message coming from the then Opposition and Gover nment. And there is a unified message, I believe, coming from us as an Opposition now, and the Gover nment, hoping that we can smoothly get through this. Well, it will not be smooth, but that we can get through this troubling time as it comes upon us very soon.
CONCERNS ABOUT DEPARTMENT OF CHILD AND FAMILY SERVICES Hon. L. Craig Cannonier: That was not what I wanted to speak to tonight. What I really wanted to speak to tonight was this whole idea of safety and security, Mr. Speaker. And I know with the industry that I am in with my service stations, safety and security is utmost.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerMm- hmm. Hon. L. Craig Cannonier: I mean, everything r evolves around that first, safety and security. And it seems that we also need to take this into consider ation when we think of our children, and how par amount it is, their safety and security to a successful future …
Mm- hmm.
Hon. L. Craig Cannonier: I mean, everything r evolves around that first, safety and security. And it seems that we also need to take this into consider ation when we think of our children, and how par amount it is, their safety and security to a successful future of Bermuda. And I s ay that because we have an ageing population that is probably the fastest growing population, the seniors of Bermuda. And we have seen where there have been abuses and there have been concerns about that ageing population. But then when you take into consi deration, Mr. Speaker, the fact that our birth rate is as low as it is, and as an Island we virtually are not growing a population with Bermudians, we need to apply with the few that we have in Bermuda that adage that I just said, safety and security. And so, we have now seen how it has been played out in public’s eye that we have a social worker who was standing in as a litigation agent who no longer is there. We saw how the former Minister was wrestling with challenges, and was going to come out with a r eport on October 31 st of allegations against
Bermuda House of Assembly Child and Family Services. You look at the paper t oday where there are concerns by interest groups about children, concerns about even Child and Family Services. And I do not believe that this is a subject that I am casting any blame on an administration. What I am saying is that safety and security is par amount for our young people. And whatever is neces-sary for us to do, we must safeguard them, because they, Mr. Speaker, with a low birth rate in Bermuda, are pr ecious to the future of this Island.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerMm- hmm. Hon. L. Craig Cannonier: Taking the fact that we, quite frankly, have not seen the report that was supposed to come out on October 31st concerning some of the allegations to the department, it would be good to hear what is happening so that we can ensure that …
Mm- hmm.
Hon. L. Craig Cannonier: Taking the fact that we, quite frankly, have not seen the report that was supposed to come out on October 31st concerning some of the allegations to the department, it would be good to hear what is happening so that we can ensure that everyone knows that things are okay with that partic ular area, with that particular department, so that we can also (as we have already seen, we have a Bill coming up and I cannot reflect on t hat) know that things are being put in place, hopefully, to secure our young people. I also want to [call to] mind that when I think about our young people, I recall when I was in univer-sity. And unfortunately, a Bermudian friend of mine was admitted to a mental institution not too far from where I was in university. And I went down to go visit because I was the only Bermudian in that particular area at the time that was close by the hospital. And to go to one of those institutions, it was quite hair raising. I had never seen anything like that before. And I had been to our institution. Back then it was called St. Brendan’s, and I had been to visit folk there on many occasions, and relatives for that matter. But I had never seen anything like this institution. It was horrific. In fact, I walked out of there pretty much traumatized. And when I hear the stories of many of our young people who have unfortunately throughout the years not had someone litigating on their behalf in Bermuda, and to know that many of them have been sent away without the consent of parents, without hav-ing someone mediate within the court on their behalf, we have got to move with some urgency about getting this sorted out. And then to hear in the newspaper, to read in the newspaper many of these abuses that took place with Bermudians who were abroad, it is quite concerning.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerMm- hmm. Hon. L. Craig Cannonier: And so, you know, I am hoping that as we move forward, and when I think about even in Bermuda here many parents who hav e gone through some atrocities, and it is difficult , you know, just rearing kids, for parents, let alone …
Mm- hmm.
Hon. L. Craig Cannonier: And so, you know, I am hoping that as we move forward, and when I think about even in Bermuda here many parents who hav e gone through some atrocities, and it is difficult , you know, just rearing kids, for parents, let alone bureaucracy trying to handle a situation like this here. And so, we have got to (and I am encouraging the Gov-ernment) to move on this with swiftness as we ensure that we secure children on this Island. That is par amount to the future, that we can secure our Island with Bermudians leading out in the many positions even that we hold here today. What I would like to say (and in closing, I said I would not be long) is that I am concerned as I look at the articles coming from the human rights and some of the interest groups out there about our kids and what is happening. I am concerned that just within a week of the former Minister having to close a nursery, he is no longer the Minister, all around the same time . . . the same time, October the 31 st, we were supposed to have a report coming about the internal review of what took place in Child and Family Services, the same day that the former Minister was no l onger the Minister. And so, it would be nice if we could get some form of an explanation as to where we are. The former Minister . . . it would be nice to even get a personal explanation from the former Minister as to where he is and how he felt about thos e things. And I say that only because I recognise the former Minister as someone who has always been concerned about Child and Family Services, our young people, and the work that he has done even outside of his mandate as a Mini ster and as an MP. You know, he and I were away in the same area in university, and it was always the case that this former Minister was a man of the people. We did not go to same university, no. I said in the same area. So, we used to always meet up together in the cricket field down there and the like when we had the opportunity.
An Hon. Member An Hon. MemberOoh. [Inaudible interjections and laughter ] Hon. L. Craig Cannonier: But I have always known the former Minister to be someone who is always concerned about the community, and the people that he serves. So, it would be nice. It would be nice if we could get some clarity there. …
Ooh.
[Inaudible interjections and laughter ]
Hon. L. Craig Cannonier: But I have always known the former Minister to be someone who is always concerned about the community, and the people that he serves. So, it would be nice. It would be nice if we could get some clarity there. I know that the interest groups are concerned. We see Bills coming down. It would be nice, Mr. Speaker, if this Government would allow him the opportunity to speak to some of these issues and the work that he has been doing. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThank you, Honourable Member. No other . . . ? I recognise the Honourable Member, Mrs. Furber t, from constituency 4. Honourable Member, you have the floor . COST OF PREMIER’S SUPPORT STAFF
Mrs. Tinee FurbertThank you, Mr. Speaker. 288 30 November 2018 Offici al Hansard Report Bermuda House of Assembly I am going to speak to you this evening [about] our Premier and the wonderful job that he is doing, Mr. Speaker. I am sorry that he is not here this evening, but I …
Thank you, Mr. Speaker. 288 30 November 2018 Offici al Hansard Report
Bermuda House of Assembly I am going to speak to you this evening [about] our Premier and the wonderful job that he is doing, Mr. Speaker. I am sorry that he is not here this evening, but I doubt that he would disagree with what it is that I will present. He is a young brother, vibrant, hard- working. He values organisation. He demands respect. He also values process. He is friendly in a good Bermudian way, and he is working hard on behalf of our country . And I know sometimes —because I have been asked questions in regard to the Premier’s travel, but he is leading our country. And Bermuda has to be repr esented globally, just like we speak about mission statements in our education system in regard to want-ing our children to be represented globally. Well, sur ely, we would want this for Bermuda—
An Hon. Member An Hon. MemberDo not bring up education.
Mrs. Tinee Furbert—and our Premier, advocating on Bermuda in regard to FinTech, Brexit, and developing Bermuda’s industr ies, diversifying our economy and building a fairer and better Bermuda. And our Premier even sometimes shows us this on social m edia. He will show us with whom he is meeting, and how he …
—and our Premier, advocating on Bermuda in regard to FinTech, Brexit, and developing Bermuda’s industr ies, diversifying our economy and building a fairer and better Bermuda. And our Premier even sometimes shows us this on social m edia. He will show us with whom he is meeting, and how he is representing Bermuda. But what is also key is that he is a leader w ho values what the people think. And what is important to the people is also important to him. And so that is r eflected all through the Progressive Labour Party’s platforms and our Throne Speech. And this is not information that is just collected from us as the Progres-sive Labour Party. It is information collected from people in our community. And so, these things are very important to him. The other thing that he shares is in regard to being a transitional or transformative Government. And interestingly enough my colleague, MP Chris Famous, and I are currently taking a Commonwealth Parliamentary Association course. And one of our modules speaks to the model of parliamentary power. I am going to share some of this tonight. And one of those models is a rubber -stamp legislature. And this rubber -stamp legislature, they are the least powerful. They just simply endorse decisions made somewhere else in the political system, usually by the party or the Executive Branch. They are often associated with communist or totalitarian nations, where decisions are made by a leader or a vanguard party in which the parliament is expected to just sim ply endorse those decisions. They come with few demands, and they are generally the least expensive to operate. And so, I just want to share what a transfor mative legislature looks like. And we come to transformative legislatures being where we not only repr esent diverse societal interests, but we also shape budgets and policies. If we think of a thermostat and how the thermostat changes the room temperature by activating heat or air conditioning [AC], transformative legislatures change policies and budgets proposed by governments and even initiate policies of their own. So, not surprisingly, transformative legisl atures are the most expensive to operate because they want key people who have key experience, key knowledge, and they also have to be able to share information and share that information worldwide. They are highly dependent on trained staff. And so, if our Premier is trying to run a country with highly trained staff, to create a transformation-al country in the decisions that we make for our people, then the research just shows that with transform ative legislatures, they are run by money. So, we have to ask the public or the people in our community, what sort of legislature or government would they want? Would they want a rubber -stamp legislature, or would they want a transformative legislature? And a transformative legislature would also include a democratic legislature. And so, I am sure our people would say that they would want a government that is transformative, where they are able to share their thoughts and have policies and legislature made off how they feel and how they think. So, we are going to continue to support our Premier as he tries to transform Bermuda and push Bermuda forward for the betterment of our people. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThank you, Honourable Member. I now recognise the Deputy Speaker. Deputy, you have the floor. COST OF PREMIER’S SUPPORT STAFF Hon. Derrick V. Burgess, Sr.: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, why would the local media newspaper, the only one we have, put this story on the front page about …
Thank you, Honourable Member. I now recognise the Deputy Speaker. Deputy, you have the floor.
COST OF PREMIER’S SUPPORT STAFF
Hon. Derrick V. Burgess, Sr.: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, why would the local media newspaper, the only one we have, put this story on the front page about the expenses of the Premier and his staff? Mr. Speaker, to me it does not matter what the costs of the Premier, Premier Burt, Premier Cannonier, what was spent, so long as this was within Financial Instructions. But, Mr. Speaker, it was a subliminal message, I think, to embarrass the Premier. And it consequently embarrasses his family to say, Well he has spent $230,000 on support staff. You know, Mr. Speaker, apparently there is something wrong with my colour, whether I be yellow, black, brown, red. Because every time a black man gets in a position, and they incur some expenses, it is looked at as being, You should not have done it. It should not have occurred. Because I recall Obama, President of the United States, he went on vacation and it was questioned, the cost of the vacation. They questioned Dr. Brown when he was Premier on the little police compound they had to put down at his house. I guess questions were thrown at Premier
Bermuda House of Assembly Cannonier also of the expenses, and now Premier Burt. But, Mr. Speaker, I have never seen one [time] where they questioned Premier Dunkley, and if they did, then I apologise. But, Mr. Speaker, what we should be questioning is Government House. The occupant of that property on the largest piece of real estate in this country costs this Gover nment over $1.4 million per year, taxpayers’ money. There is a staff of 13, not all of them Bermudian. In fact, most of them are probably foreign. And that would be in line with what Governors have done in Bermuda, when appointments have been left to them, which is their responsibility. I would venture to say at least 90 per cent of their appointments were foreign, and white! And the performance at Government House has been dismal where they have perpetuated in this country discrimination based on colour to allow up until the late 1950s discrimination on jobs. That is what was al lowed in this country when it was not allowed in the UK. Mr. Speaker, we should be questioning the cost of energy, electricity at Government House, the cost of water at Government House. And Mr. Speaker, the social functions, who pays for them —
An Hon. Me mber: Oh, yes.
Hon. Derrick V. Burgess, Sr.: —at Government House? And Mr. Speaker, I have never heard anyone question Government House about when they have guests come down from overseas. Who pays for that? Is it Ms. Smith and me, Mr. Speaker? But, you k now, when it comes to us, they want people to think that, Oh, they are doing it. It has got to be corrupt. There has got to be mismanagement b ecause it is people of colour. And really, I guess the message is, You do not deserve that. You know, You used to run around in grass skirts and whatever. You can’t run a country and get the benefits that you should have. Mr. Speaker, I remember one time one of my cousins from overseas, from the Royal Family, came down to visit Government House, and they did not invite the PLP, who were the Opposition at that time. Did not invite us! And the Leader of the day had to ask for an invitation. Consequently, he got one; I think they invited two of us. They were probably the only two known dark -skinned people there that went in, because if you saw any other dark -skinned people they were accepted by the oligarchs of this country. Mr. Speaker, you know, we not only have the Governor’s expenses, we have a Deputy Governor. I remember the time when GP1 went on the blink during Dr. Brown’s tenure as the Premier. I happened to be the Minister of W&E [Works and Engineering] and the car purchases came under me. I told them to get a car just as good, or better, than what the Governor drives around in. And we had some comment from others ; it did not bother me. See, our Premier is elec ted by the people of this country. The governors that come here . . . we have no say in them. And Mr. Speaker, when I read the history and you read about the powers that be in that day, the ol igarchs, when the Governor did not do what they wanted, they stopped paying him. Did not pay him! They even told, Sir Henry Tucker told him, We will break away from the UK. They stamped their authority on the British. I guess that is why I was glad to see even the former Finance Minister, Bob Richards, and my Premier, David Burt, stand up against the British. We are not doing what you want! That is not in your remit! And we need to stay there, Mr. Premier. And I know he will. But when you start asking about the cost of wh ere our Premier lives, because that is a requir ement of the job––and we do not want our Premier, regardless of who it may be, living in Motel 6. I know they leave the lights on for you; but we do not want them living there.
[Laughter]
Hon. Derrick V. Bur ge ss, Sr.: We want them to have the comforts that the job requires. As you have heard, and as you know, our Premier is the only Premier, so far, who has had young children, two young children. It is a demanding job. You cannot run this country today by st aying in Bermuda. You have got to travel. You see all the types of regulations that the UK is trying to put on us. You must travel. And that is what our Premier needs to do. Do not question the Premier. We want him to do a good job. He should not have to worry about . . . nor should his family have to worry about, Oh, the press is criticising what he has to spend to live. E very dime that is spent down there is within the Financial Instructions. And for this to take the front page of the newspaper is ridiculous! [Inaudible interjections]
Hon. Derrick V. Burgess, Sr.: I did not get that, cousin.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerSpeak to the Chair. You are all right. [Laughter] Hon. Derrick V. Burgess, Sr.: But, Mr. Speaker, I would ask the people of Bermuda, when you star t questioning any of our Premiers, regardless of whet her they be white or black . . . [to] question what they are …
Speak to the Chair. You are all right.
[Laughter]
Hon. Derrick V. Burgess, Sr.: But, Mr. Speaker, I would ask the people of Bermuda, when you star t questioning any of our Premiers, regardless of whet her they be white or black . . . [to] question what they are spending up at Government House, we are the only colony that pays for our Governor. All other col onies the governors are paid for by the UK. W e pay this 290 30 November 2018 Offici al Hansard Report
Bermuda House of Assembly Governor, and that is something that we need to think about when we do the adjustments to our Constit ution, because we should not be paying our Governor.
An Hon. Member An Hon. MemberGood point. Hon. Derrick V. Burgess, Sr.: We should never pay our governors. And I agree with the oligarchs of the day. When you do not do as you are told . . . because you are here to represent us, you are here to give the proper message, the …
Good point.
Hon. Derrick V. Burgess, Sr.: We should never pay our governors. And I agree with the oligarchs of the day. When you do not do as you are told . . . because you are here to represent us, you are here to give the proper message, the true message to the UK, not the message you want them to hear , what you think they should hear. You give them the true message. B ecause the history . . . the history of Government House has been terrible. That is why race relations are as they are, because they started it, and they should finish it by demonstrating that we can do the job. When you had a former Attorney General (with over 20 years of experience in the legal profes-sion), when you had a judge, a black Bermudian judge (with over 20 years on the bench) and cannot qualify for the chief justice job, because they want a Cauc asian; when you had [John] Vereker, the former Gover-nor of Bermuda state that, I knew Norma Wade had the qualifications and the experience for the job to be chief justice, but I wanted Justice [Richard] Ground because I have got some cases to deal with, it tells you that they do not respect or have confidence in people of colour, Mr. Speaker. So, again, I ask the people of Bermuda, do not question our Premiers about how much is being spent down . . . wherever they are staying. It is within Financial Instructions. Question Government House. Again, the largest piece of property in this country! That is who we should be questioning. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThank you, Deputy. Does any other Honourable Member wish to speak? I recognise the Honourabl e Member from constituency 23. Honourable Member, you have the floor. Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I know protocol in the House would dictate that I do not speak …
Thank you, Deputy. Does any other Honourable Member wish to speak? I recognise the Honourabl e Member from constituency 23. Honourable Member, you have the floor.
Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I know protocol in the House would dictate that I do not speak after my Leader, and I do not wish to upset or offend anybody by my taking to my feet tonight, because I did ask permission. Just to make sure that it is clear. But let me just say that the size of Cabinet, the cost of the Premier’s office, the cost of special consultants are all questions that were asked of our administration, ad infinitum. They were laboured and belaboured, time and time again in order that the pub-lic was made aware of how much of the public purse the Premiers of the day were spending in the exec ution of their duties. I have said several times on this floor, Mr. Speaker, I do not care what the Premier spends. And that is Premier Dunkley, Premier Cannonier, now Premier Burt, or Premier Cox, and all the way down the line. You have never heard me criticise what was required for them to spend in the execution of their duties, because they are doing those jobs for us, the country. And we respect that. And we have no problem with that. But we also do not have the right to withhold that information from the public. I can go all the way back, Mr. Speaker, and I do not think I have to declare an interest, but I can make a statement of fact that my younger sister, in 1997 through 1998, actually served as a Premier for this country. And I can remember the flak that she was subjected to, by the then PLP, in Opposition, because they built a hut outside of her property in Warwick where she was living. It was manned by police officers and it was like, What gives them the right to spend the public money in order to have police offi cers stationed outside [Pr emier Gordon’s] home? Now, what was interesting, even before that happened, Mr. Speaker, my sister, when she was appointed to that position, was actually living at my mother’s home. And at the time the Police [Service] and Special Branch had determined that that house was not conducive to effective surveillance and sec urity. And as a result, she was instructed to move out. At the time, Mr. Speaker, the PS responsible for Works and Engineering was tasked with finding an appropriate house in which she could have lived in order, not for herself, not for her family ––because she was actually quite comfortable where she was ––but in order to satisfy the requirements of Special Branch, to ensure that she was property and safely guarded. Mr. Speaker, the individual responsible at that time refused to do it . . . refused to do it, because of public pressure that was brought by the PLP at that time. Why does she have to have something that is special? So let’s not talk about asking questions on how we are spending the public purse. This is som ething that has gone on perennially , from time imm emorial , because somebody thinks that they can score brownie points with people who are representing the country from a leadership position. I think it is despi cable. And now when w e hear that it is a challenge t oday because there was an article, it is no different than the articles that we saw in 1997, 1998. It is no different than the questions that we asked of the pr evious PLP administration. And you will know, Mr. Speaker, the f irst PLP Premier had been given the right to use the property that was in . . . sort of further up Middle Road than where the Premier now lives. And you will know that there were other Premiers in between, Premier Brown, who chose to stay in his own home. Therefore, the questions concerning his staff may not have come to the fore because it was obvious that he was not
Bermuda House of Assembly utilising public facilities. We also had Premier Dunkley who lived in his own home, as I recall, who did not have those additional charges. But we had Premier Cox, we had Premier Cannonier, and we now have Premier Burt, following up from Premier Dame Jennifer Smith, who all lived in properties that have been provided by the Bermuda Government. And in so doing, I believe that we have an obligat ion, not because we want to be picayune, not because we want to down cry what somebody is earning, but because we feel that we have an obligation to provide information to the public. And it is unfortunate that people are so touchy about it today when they felt no way about being the same ones bulldozing the questions to this Parliament and to the public when the other parties were in Government. So let us be consistent. Either we want the information or we do not. And if the information is applicable to person A, then clearly it has to be applic able to person B. Nothing personal. The challenge that we have is every move that we make in this Honour able House somehow boils down to the “us” versus “them” mentality. And we have to stop that. We have to stop it because I have known . . . in fact, Mr. Speaker, on Sunday, as I was watching the Santa Claus parade, the Premier came down with his wife and his children, and he was leaving before them. He did not realise that I had been sitting there, and he came up and said hello as he was on his way out and he said, I am getting on the plane to go to London. And I said to him, I wish you much success. Why, Mr. Speaker? Not because there is any animus toward the Premier. He is doing the job for this country, for all of us. And all of us, in particular those of us who sit in this Honourable House who have an obligation to enquire of him what job is being done for us, and how can we assist in the process? We differ politically. We differ, as I said earlier today, on the methodology by which we may achieve the final objective. But there is nothing about that final objective that is inconsistent between the parties. And what that final objective is is that we want the very best for all of the people of Bermuda. So we need t o stop this pettiness. And we need to stop, you know, thinking that somebody is treading on your toes when you felt no way about doing it before. I am not willing to continue to play this tit - for-tat game because (a) it is counterintuitive, — [Inaudible i nterjections and general uproar ]
Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: —it is counterint uitive—
The SpeakerThe SpeakerMembers, Members. Members, only one Member speaking. Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: The Honourable Member says I have been playing tit -for-tat fo r years. And you know what? I said . . . he didn’t hear me. I said I will no longer continue to play the tit -for-tat …
Members, Members. Members, only one Member speaking. Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: The Honourable Member says I have been playing tit -for-tat fo r years. And you know what? I said . . . he didn’t hear me. I said I will no longer continue to play the tit -for-tat game.
[Inaudible interjections and laughter ]
Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: That is what I said.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThe key word was “cont inue.” Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: I said “continue.”
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThe key word was “continue.” [Inaudible interjections] Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: I have never once said that I have never done it. I am not that wonderful. I am politically driven and politically motivated. But with that said, Mr. Speaker, I am going to get off of that, because …
The key word was “continue.”
[Inaudible interjections]
Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: I have never once said that I have never done it. I am not that wonderful. I am politically driven and politically motivated. But with that said, Mr. Speaker, I am going to get off of that, because I think it is petty and it is a picayune subject that really has no place in today’s Parliament. If a newspaper decided to carry it, they were remiss in not being able to give the comparatives to which the Honourable Member spoke. But at least have a complete picture, and I have no problem with that. I think that this should be demanded of them. I think that we should be the ones who have that att itude that we need to embrace what is required for the better good of the country and to make sure that we adhere to it.
SICKOUT BY TEACHERS Hon. Patricia J. Gordon –Pamplin: But let me just go to the topic that I actually wanted to discuss today, Mr. Speaker, and that is with education. It is most disappointing to us, Mr. Speaker. My leader spoke to the absence of a report that was scheduled to be delivered in respect of what was happening at Child and Family Services, and to have ac-countability in respec t thereof. We also did not see, Mr. Speaker [that a] a Ministerial Statement [was gi ven] today, or something that would give us as parli amentarians, and the country in general as consumers, [information] concerning the fact that an entire school had no teachers show up today. Now, we have a responsibility to be concerned for our children, and when you read in the paper and you see that all of the teachers in a certain school had just not shown up to school, that has to give us cause for concern. Number one, our children are being denied the level of education that they ought to have had [and] the instructions that they would have had otherwise today. 292 30 November 2018 Offici al Hansard Report
Bermuda House of Assembly We also have concern over the fact that there are underlying issues which some say are longstanding, and I accept and respect that. [Inaudible interjections]
Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: You okay, Mini ster? Okay.
An Hon. Member An Hon. MemberYes, I am very flexible. Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Oh, okay. I am glad to know that you are okay, Minister.
An Hon. Member An Hon. MemberYes, I can play tit -for-tat now. [Laughter] Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: I do not fall down.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerContinue on. Speak to the Chair. Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. There are long- standing and some deepseated concerns that the teachers have articulated which have resulted in their decision to withdraw l abour to the detriment of our children today. That is what we …
Continue on. Speak to the Chair.
Hon. Patricia J. Gordon -Pamplin: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. There are long- standing and some deepseated concerns that the teachers have articulated which have resulted in their decision to withdraw l abour to the detriment of our children today. That is what we should be discussing. Not whether somebody has a babysitter or does not have a babysitt er. Those are substantive issues that are going to affect our children and of which we should have at the forefront of our concern, as opposed to the nonsense that we heard from Honourable Members earlier today because somebody —in another place I might add—asked a question. Asked a question for which the responses could be and should be in the public domain, because, as I said, it is not our money. The money belongs to the public. But let us hear what is happening to assuage the challenges that our young people are facing when they are unable to receive effective instruction. We heard the Honourable Member earlier speak to the fact that we have our young people joi ning, you know, participating in antisocial behaviour, and that it was generational and various other attributions that he made to that particular challenge. But if we continue to not have our children in proper, organised, structured instruction, then we are as guilty as we could be of encouraging some delinquency because we are not playing our rol es. So when we do not play our roles, we cannot then point fingers at our children and say, How come you are going wrong? When we do not have the wherewithal to ensure that our children are protected, that they are in a safe environment, as we still await the report from the investigation of Child and Family Services, and certainly as we attempt to underscore the importance of making sure that our teachers and those people who are trusted with the education of our children, have the terms and conditions. When you hear that some teachers in certain areas do not have the opportunity to even take a lunch break, Mr. Speaker, this can’t be right. It cannot be right! But there are basic things, and I can go through the litany of problems. But at the very least I would expect that we would have heard some kind of information being disclosed to this Honourable House so that we know how our children are faring. Mr. Speaker, we can do better. And I expect that we will do better. And, Mr. Speaker, with that I will take my seat.
The SpeakerThe SpeakerThank you, Honourable Member. No other Member wishes to speak? The House stands adjourned until Friday next at 10:00 am. [Gavel] [At 6:36 pm, the House stood adjourned until 10:00 am, Friday, 7 December 2018.]